Best Type Of Leather For Belts? Best Conditioner?

[Acceptable]

Hi guys, I'm quite new to the world of leatherwork and am hoping to make some belts as holiday presents for family and friends.

I made a 1.5" belt using 9-10 oz Horween CXL, but was recently told that CXL is not the ideal leather for even casual belts because the leather stretches.

Someone recommended I look into Hermann Oak and Wickett and Craig vegetable-tanned leathers.

I managed to purchase a 9-10 oz strip of Hermann Oak Bridle (not the English Bridle I don't think) and 9-10 oz Wickett and Craig Bridle.

I just have a few questions:

1. Compared to CXL, the two vegtanned leathers were both extremely stiff and almost cardboard-like. Is this normal?
2. Is it appropriate to use Lexol conditioner for both the two vegtan leathers and also CXL? Will Lexol help soften the two vegtan leathers?
3. Out of the Hermann Oak and W&C offerings, which of their line of leathers is the optimal leather for making belts?

Thanks a lot!

[JLSleather]

Just FYI, without going clear into that, english bridle is also "veg tanned".

If you're going to tool or stamp the belt, then go with carving leather (sometimes called skirting, or tooling leather). If you are looking for a great belt that will look nice and wear basically forever, go with the english bridle.

As always, keep in mind not all leathers are equal. Wickett / Craigs "formula" might not be the same as someone else's, so "english bridle" from one may not be like the next.

One more consideration.. it would be very difficult to dye the bridle leather. So either purchase that in the color you want, or get the skirting leather to color it yourself.

[Acceptable]

Just FYI, without going clear into that, english bridle is also "veg tanned".

If you're going to tool or stamp the belt, then go with carving leather (sometimes called skirting, or tooling leather). If you are looking for a great belt that will look nice and wear basically forever, go with the english bridle.

As always, keep in mind not all leathers are equal. Wickett / Craigs "formula" might not be the same as someone else's, so "english bridle" from one may not be like the next.

One more consideration.. it would be very difficult to dye the bridle leather. So either purchase that in the color you want, or get the skirting leather to color it yourself.

Thanks for the answer!

I won't be tooling/stamping/carving or dyeing the leather.

The pieces I received were labelled as just "Bridle" and not "English Bridle." There are descriptions on HO and W&C's websites describing the qualities of each, but I don't really understand what the difference between them are.

[Art]

If you are not making the belts for cc then it is way easier to just order belt blanks from Weaver leather (get a wholesale account). I made a belt out of black dyed belt blank from Weaver that I am still using, almost daily, 10 years later. Now, I won't guarantee what the TLF stuff will be, but the Weaver is excellent. As far as stiffness, you want a belt that way, at least I do, cause I never know when a 649 Smith will be hanging on it. They do get a little more supple as time and a few coats of conditioner (Pecard's) pass over them.

For custom and ccw belts, the Wickett & Craig English Bridle or Belt Latigo is the trick. We slit along the back and get excellent quality and yield.

The difference between Bridle and "English Bridle" is pretty much zilch. Pick it up and feel it, buy what you want. Some of the harness leather is pretty oily, not something you want in a belt due to staining.

Art

[CustomDoug]

I agree that there's not much difference between Bridle and English Bridle - though it originated in England and so they tend to be a little possessive of the name. That's probably understandable though since folks tend to use the words "English Bridle" when it's not actually from there. The English would (supposedly) be still using specific organic matter, barks, etc that are native and traditional to their area. And it might create a slightly better bridle leather.. but that's subjective. I have noticed though that the true English Bridle tends to be waxier than the other forms of it, as delivered. It can look quite "milky" before use. It's meant to be scrubbed with a horse hair brush, to re-work the waxes in.

Doug C

[byggyns]

For utility / casual belts, latigo is great. Before I started leatherworking, I bought my belts from an amish leather shop. The belts are a little stiff and thick for dress belts. The latigo, like the bridle, cannot be dyed after it comes out of the tannery. The waxes in the leather make for a great, long-lasting belt. I am wearing one right now that I've owned and worn regularly for over 12 years.

It always used to fascinate me when I watched the amish guy pull the side of leather off the shelf, cut the belt strip, then finish the belt right in front of me.

Edited December 11, 2015 by byggyns

[OLDNSLOW]

to sort of ask another question and not to jack the thread, it seems like it is a little tough to set up an account with weaver if I am not mistaken, it seems like they want to you to have not only a business license but a tax I D from the IRS as well as a resellers permit from the state you are in, seems like an awful lot for someone that might be doing part time or as a hobby, please clarify if I am wrong.

Thanks

O n S

[Art]

You can get a Tax id (employer id) from the IRS and a retail sales and use tax license, and a business name from the state in about 15 minutes online. Cost is about $20 or so. I ain't holding your hand, this is EZ.

Art

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Weaver has a retail site on-line for the non-wholesale customers. The reason for the hoops to jump through for the wholesale account, is that if you are not in business, then you should not be buying wholesale. That's the (well, one) difference between professional and hobby. Imo, it has long been way too easy for any Tom, Dick and Harry to buy wholesale in this industry. If you spend the bucks to get established as a business and jump through all the hoops and BS that we as businesses have to do, take the leap and quit your day-job to go full time knowing you might well fall on your ass, then you are entitled to wholesale status. If you are doing a bit of hobby work for cash under the table after your regular job, then you are not entitled to wholesale status. I know I might step on some toes here and I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular nor to those doing this as a hobby; everyone starts out pretty much the same way, and I was no exception. But it gripes me that folks who are not full time in this business, not collecting and turning in sales tax, not reporting the income on their 1040, expect wholesale treatment.

[OLDNSLOW]

WELL, I didn't mean to pee in any one's Wheaties, and have half of the requirement for an account, however as a self employed person there really isn't a need for a federal I D number when a person can use their SS #, and I haven't paid attention in a while but I think there might be a few states that do not charge a sales tax, so that being the case if I am correct, then it is difficult to comply with all of their requirements to be able to buy whole sale vs retail. And being that they are in business then they should know that, and being it is internet sales, unless they feel that all should give to the likes of OBO and Bernie Sanders there is usually no sales tax attached to the sales anyway. It is like telling someone to create a corporation because they are protected by the corporate umbrella, when if fact that is false. But I am sure that all of you know that as well!! But there are those that feel that is should be difficult for anyone to enter in to a new venture primarily because it might have an affect on their own sales, what they fail to realize is that there is enough work for everyone and for several reasons. One of the reasons is that if it was really successful everybody with the talent to do it would be doing it. And for everyone that entered the field today there are probably several others that have failed. This isn't my 1st rodeo and probably be my last and as one of you pointed out, we are welcome to fail on any given day.

Edited December 13, 2015 by OLDNSLOW

[Acceptable]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I think I'll go ahead and try the bridle leathers.

Would a 9-10 oz Bridle leather from HO or W&C stretch over time? i.e., should I make the belt slightly tighter to accommodate potential stretching?

And how do the "English" Bridle leather blanks from Weaver compare to the leathers from HO and W&C? I can't seem to find the name of the tannery that the Weaver leathers are from.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Acceptable

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Much of Weaver's leather that is not labeled HO is from Chahin, a Mexican tannery. I've not bought the blanks from Weaver, but I've bought sides, and there is no imported leather from Mexico or South America that equals domestically tanned leather. I would ask before I order. W & C is a softer leather than HO and will likely have a little more stretch and the W & C gets a wrinkled and "worn" or raggy look sooner than the HO, but seems to last forever despite that. As far as making the belt slightly tighter to accommodate stretching, I never do. You shouldn't get that much stretch out of it that it would make a difference; it's more the belt conforming to the wearer's shape than anything, at least if the strap is cut from good stuff.

To OldNSlow, I guess I'm older and slower than you, because I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you said above, Maybe after another 3 or 4 cups of coffee I'll figure it out. Late night, too little sleep, too many nights in a row. Anyway, all I was saying was if you qualify as a business, you should expect wholesale status. If not, then you shouldn't. it works the same in any other industry. Quantity purchases gets you better prices. Weaver and others like them are just adhering to a standard practice in about any trade you want to pick. I just built a house; I picked materials up at a wholesale place, but I sure as heck didn't get to purchase it directly from them.

[TinkerTailor]

to sort of ask another question and not to jack the thread, it seems like it is a little tough to set up an account with weaver if I am not mistaken, it seems like they want to you to have not only a business license but a tax I D from the IRS as well as a resellers permit from the state you are in, seems like an awful lot for someone that might be doing part time or as a hobby, please clarify if I am wrong.

Thanks

O n S

This is cut and pasted directly off of weavers website. It pays to read clearly, they even underlined it and put it in bold for you.....

Thank you for your interest in opening a Weaver Leather Supply account! We have a policy of selling our supplies through qualified wholesale customers only. To establish a Weaver Leather Supply Account a company must have one of the following requirements to establish proof of business.

• A Federal Tax ID # (Required for AZ, CA, FL, IL, IN, IA, KY, MI, MN, MO, NY, OH, PA, SD, TN, TX, WA, WV, WI)
• A Vendors License #
• A business card
• A copy of their letterhead
• A phone book advertisement

Send them a business card.........And get a tax ID if you are in one of the listed states. As Art said, 20 bux and 15 mins.

[JLSleather]

OnS is correct - that IS confusing. I'm in IA (one of the states listed) and my 'fed tax id' IS my SSN. I also have a sales tax permit which is NOT the same number.

I've never shopped at weaver - just clarifying.

[Kulafarmer]

This is cut and pasted directly off of weavers website. It pays to read clearly, they even underlined it and put it in bold for you.....

Thank you for your interest in opening a Weaver Leather Supply account! We have a policy of selling our supplies through qualified wholesale customers only. To establish a Weaver Leather Supply Account a company must have one of the following requirements to establish proof of business.

• A Federal Tax ID # (Required for AZ, CA, FL, IL, IN, IA, KY, MI, MN, MO, NY, OH, PA, SD, TN, TX, WA, WV, WI)
• A Vendors License #
• A business card
• A copy of their letterhead
• A phone book advertisement

Send them a business card.........And get a tax ID if you are in one of the listed states. As Art said, 20 bux and 15 mins.

Well guess im going to delete their link, no intrest in doing business with elitist, plenty other places who will take my money

[TinkerTailor]

Well guess im going to delete their link, no intrest in doing business with elitist, plenty other places who will take my money

We are not talking about retail, we are talking about setting up a wholesale account. Weaver has retail. This is how most should shop there. Anyone can buy this way.

If you need a few rivets and a bottle of dye, you will pay for having smaller quantities available. If you are buying neetsfoot by the 45 gallon drum, and hides by the dozen, it is a different kind of business.

In addition, business get tax breaks as manufacturers that consumers are not eligible for. Sales tax is generally applied on the end product, not every step in between.This is not an elitist thing. Wholesale entails buying bigger volumes, at cheaper prices often with less or no advice included. For the cheaper price you need to know what you want. Time is money and retail takes time.

Most of the other suppliers have some kind of wholesale cheaper pricing for businesses.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Tinker you said it better than I could have! I don't know why folks in this trade find it so hard to understand or accept. It's how every other industry in the world operates. Food industry, auto industry, construction, you name it, the list goes on and on.

[JLSleather]

I have never bought a 'drum' of neatsfoot. But I do like the idea of getting leather from the tannery -- same reason as the wholesale pricing. HO from HO is about $8 per foot, not $12 ($300 per side is $12/ft). That's a 50% mark-up over MY cost, and I'm guessing someone buying 1000 times more hides than I do is getting a price better than mine to begin with.

So if people like paying $50-$100 more per hide, have at it. But it seems a little strange to call that "wholesale" pricing.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I think you're looking at the Weaver retail site, JLS.

[JLSleather]

could be. If I have to "sign up" just to see the wholesale pricing, then I'll just continue to pass on that

[byggyns]

could be. If I have to "sign up" just to see the wholesale pricing, then I'll just continue to pass on that

You can request their paper catalog. It has the wholesale prices in it. Since I'm not too far away from their shop, I stopped in last week and got a copy of the catalog.

Their show room is really only good if you want to buy equipment- lots of sewing machines on display as well as clickers, setter presses, etc. If you want to pick out your own hides, they will let you go into the warehouse to do that.

Their displays of hardware, conchos, buckles, etc has much to be desired. That being said, the employee said that not too many people come in to look at anything.

[JLSleather]

So, then, since it's apparently not national security, somebody care to mention teh "wholesale" price of HO sides?

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

What weight and what type of leather JLS?

[JLSleather]

Natural tooling leather. Maybe 7/8 or 8/9. Or 3/4 - either way. And only A or B grade (preferably A).

Edited December 15, 2015 by JLSleather

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Oops, entered this before I saw your response: I guess you use a lot of strap, so at one side, all weights are $9.03 as listed in catalog. At five to 9 sides, lighter weights are $8.50, heavier weights are $8.65. At ten sides or more, lighter weights are $7.95 and heavier weights are $8.10. More than once, I've seen Weaver equal to or even a bit less than HO's direct price. What I like about Weaver (and there are things I DON"T like about them) is that the leather is usually in stock for immediate shipment, and the ten side price is a mix-n-match deal; ten sides any type, any weight of any of the leathers they carry, OR if you exceed a $1000 on your order, you automatically get their best price. Now, most of their leather is TR grade, and I believe the price from HO you quoted above is "A" grade. I like Weaver's pricing structure for this reason: At any given time I stock 50-75 sides of the most common leathers used in the equine trades. Three colors of harness in several weights, three colors of skirting in several weights, three types of latigo, in different weights, two or three colors of English bridle in assorted weights, misc strap, misc chap. I don't have to get quite as much money tied up in inventory if I can mix and match my leather purchases. And of course, there's the storage issue, who ever has enough room???

Edited December 15, 2015 by Big Sioux Saddlery