Problem With Customer's Seat Fit

[JAM]

I'm having a problem with a customer's saddle - specifically, I can't seem to get the seat right for her. I've built maybe 30 saddles, and this is the first time the customer has not said "The seat is terrific, comfy, perfect, etc". In fact the seat in this customer's saddle nearly crippled her. It's on its way back to me for re-shaping a second time, and I've got to get it right. A seat that works for me has always worked for my other customers, but this one, for the first time, doesn't even come close. Apparently I put too much crown in it. I hate to take it down to dead flat because flat is a shape I can't ride in and can't get a feel for.

I'd appreciate any advice or ideas. BTW, all of my customers, including this one, are too far away to come in for a fitting, so I have to do the seat shaping long-distance and just hope it works.

Has any one else had this problem?

Julia McCormack

McCormack Hill Leather

www.mhleather.com

[rdl123]

Hello Julia,

The only thing I can think of is to have the client template the seat in a saddle that they like to ride...That would give you a fairly good idea.

If they took one profile template and then two or three cross ways you would have a fairly good handle on the shape they are after.

(That is if they have a saddle that they like the seat in already).

Ron

[JAM]

Thanks, Ron - that's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that, and I will give it a try. No doubt that would be a bigger help than pictures.

Julia

[TinkerTailor]

Its a little different, and they are adjustable but i fit Brooks bicycle saddles at work, and it always amazes me what people find comfortable.....Sometimes the nose of the saddle is 1.5 inches higher than the back, and sometimes it is lower. Anatomy is strange.....Especially over the phone..

My method is to get all doctory, forget the embarrassment and ask very direct questions. Where does it feel uncomfortable? Is it a pinch or pressure? Front or back? Does it make a difference if you raise/drop your knees? As you raise your knees, your pelvis tilts back...etc

Also ask if they have any spine/hip/knee issues or oddities from the past. Birth defects and old injuries can make a huge difference. I have a customer that broke a chunk off one sitbone early in life and they healed uneven. It does not effect her in any way while walking and normal sitting but while riding a bike it causes her hips to cant to one side due to one sit bone being higher.. This gives her lower back pain. Plenty of shops have adjusted plenty of saddles for angle front to back to help with the back pain to no avail. When I asked her about any injuries, she remembered this fall from her childhood.

I took her $200 leather saddle and used a BFH to bend the seat rail down on the right, effectively "ruining" the saddle and voiding all warranty. It fit perfect. She loves it.

On a semi-side note I have read about bike saddle fitters in the early days of bikes hitting the nose of the saddle left or right to bend it away from the "side the gentleman chooses to carry himself on"

There are other questions probably relating to horse saddles. Don't hesitate to ask questions, even info the customer thinks is irrelevant can be the crux.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok Julia, I'll try this again. Not sure what happened to my original answer but half way through the dam thing put me back to the topic page without saving what I wrote. Bottom line, Ron's advice is valid, had it happen to me and that's what it took to get it right several years ago. There is a video on utube by Schleese Saddles that will help you understand the mechanics of what is going on. Jocken is a world renowned saddler and is saddler to the German Equestrian Team. He knows his stuff, he actually went to a Gynecologist to help him understand the mechanics of good fit especially for women and his research is enlightening. Even though he makes English Dressage saddles, the principles apply. I am currently making a western dressage saddle for a lady using his teachings. Really pleased with how it is coming out. Had a mutual friend of his and mine sit the seat on this one (she is a Dressage Judge up here and rides nothing Schleese saddles, her comments after she got off of this one were simply, "how much for you to start one for me". Guess you are never too old to learn something. I believe if you look under Schleese Saddle Videos you will find it. If not pm me and I will find it for you.

Bob

Edited January 5, 2016 by BondoBobCustomSaddles

[Thor]

Bob, I'm assuming you are speaking about Jochen Schleese. Just slightly different spelling.

https://schleese.com/

As a matter of fact I like TinkerTailor's input. Saddle making is beyond my experience, but as a riding instructor I know that there is the odd person that is just as hard to fit as a hard to fit horse. So who knows there may be some relevant skeletal or general structural condition the lady may not even be aware of or forgot about it.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

You got it! My spelling of his name I did get it wrong, however; that is the guy and he does know what he is talking about.

Bob

[Equiplay Saddlery]

Don't rule out the rider's skeletal differences in other parts of their body as well. I have one leg that is 1/2" longer than the other. That doesn't sound like much but it is enough to put me off balance when I put weight in the stirrups. After a while it gets me and my horse really uncomfortable that's why my personal stirrup leathers have half holes to compensate. She may also be sitting differently than you because of issues somewhere else in her body not just in her seat bones.

[JAM]

Such terrific help, thanks to all of you! I will use all of your ideas.

I've seen the Schleese videos, along with lots of other research into rider anatomy and male vs female - all very helpful. All that information helped me to develop the seat I build (the one that works for me, and that has worked for every other customer I've ever had) - and it all helped me understand why I couldn't ride comfortably in a dead-flat cowboy saddle seat. But it only stands to reason that eventually I will have a customer who can't ride in the seat that works for me - so now I'm making modifications without her direct real-time input.

After the saddle came back the first time I sent her a wad of thermoplastic plastic stuff (Equimeasure - the thermoplastic sheet for taking the shape of a horse's back - which doesn't work so well for the horse's back but works great for a seat-bones mold) and had her warm it up and sit in it in her saddle so I could see how close her ischia are. Much closer together than mine - more like a man's, which explains a lot. I made the longitudinal "crown" in the seat gentler and flatter, but it didn't work. I suspect she needs the dead-flat cowboy seat that I find so uncomfortable She says she wants the seat "concave, not convex". So I will ask her the anatomy/injury questions, and ask her for templates of a saddle she likes, and hope the third time is the charm.

With all the shipping back and forth, I'm losing money on this saddle now (but I'm getting lots of cantle-binding practice).

I will post my results here when this third iteration is done. Thanks again!

Julia

[JAM]

Update: Redid the ground seat for the second time (good cantle binding practice - )

I made it dead flat side-to-side from the back of the stirrup slots to the cantle corners (even added a few mm at the top of each bar to make the seat a bit wider and more quick-drop at the edges), with a long sloopy arc from the handhole down into the center of the seat and back up to the cantle binding. It's very pretty, but atrociously uncomfortable for me (I wouldn't be able to ride in it for five minutes). Also, from the seat-bones mold I got back from her, her ischia are very close (like a man's), and the left one is a little deeper and a cm forward of the right one - so I made a gentle compensation for that in the seat. No way to know if that helped, but it seems to have not hurt anything.

Anyway, her pronouncement was "Have saddle, will ride - 100% improvement - :thumbsup: "

So I got it right (for her). Now I'm flummoxed. My reputation is in the seat I build. I've always built the seat that works for me, and all my customers (until this one) have raved about it. This one broke the mold, and now I'm jittery about my seats. I think in the future I may add a seat-bones mold to my DL profiles cards package, so I can get profiles for both the horse's back and the rider's seat. It's really not a good thing to be unbuttoning and opening up a nice, tight, new saddle (and I hate cantle bindings! )

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

Edited January 27, 2016 by JAM

[TinkerTailor]

That is great. It was a hard go, however you now have a well documented case of your abilities as a saddle maker who can work with difficult fitting situations. You can charge more for this service, I imagine. Put a statement on your site that says something like 'We make saddles to fit everyone. Our standard saddles fit 90% of people, however some require a custom fit. Various levels of custom fitting services are available.'

The top level of service should be on site fitting and delivery. You want me to fit you to the horse that you keep in your stable in bermuda? Let me check my calender...Some people who ride horses have waaaaayyyyy more money than brains remember..And you never get what you don't ask for.

[JAM]

Ha - I never would have thought of that! That opens up a whole new niche. More realistically, anyone with that much money could come to my place for the custom seat fit. Customers close enough to me have done that, and it has been a great way to get to know them better. Most of my customers are pretty far away (CA, NJ, Toronto, New Zealand, Italy) - guess I got lucky with those saddles. But I ought to make that custom-fit service here at my workshop plainly available to everyone.

TinkerTailor, you are inspiring!