Ethical Dilemma Involving Sewing Leather! Yes Really!

[Gregspitz]

Hello Leather workers

I have primarily been making watch straps for the last few years and love using my Techsew 2750pro to sew them

anyway..the ethical dilemma is that one of the bigger players in the watch strap business on several watch collectors website is blatantly advertising HAND SEWN watch straps when it is clearly seen by anyone(from their own pictures) that they are machine sewn.

The straps look good however this does not seem right to charge a premium for a hand sewn COUSU MAIN strap when it is machine sewn.

I have contacted them discreetly and hope to get a response..but

would YOU post this "problem" on the watch collector sites to set the record straight(with pictures) if they do not respond??

just thought I would run it by here..

thanks

Greg

[Art]

Greg,

I have seen some that definitely were hand sewn (and with a few mistrakes), and some that appear to be machine sewn. There may be more than one "line" of straps with different price points and manufacture. Is this assertion "killing" your business, or does it just tick you off? If you are trying to land a contract with Omega, then they are looking for Style, Quality, Price, and the ability to deliver, in pretty much that order, but that order may change over the course of the day. Hand stitching may only come into play if the customer thinks it will from a sales standpoint. Omega really sells watches. Your watchbands are replacement, upgrade, OEM. I never recommend anyone get into an OEM type of business anymore than I would recommend they start competing, or even selling to Wal-Mart. Little fish in the Amazon have problems swimming with big fish. Transfer those same fish to a pond and they become a lot bigger fish and have a lot less trouble surviving.

Sounds like you already have your own niche; if you're not having problems, leave it alone.

Art

[Tugadude]

Just my $.02 and I'm sure that's what it is worth. Do they say hand stitched? Or hand sewn? For those who parse language, there could be a difference. The other thing that comes to mind is that those who would pay a lot of money for premium leather straps might be able to tell machine sewn versus hand stitched. Some obviously won't. Personally, I would probably let it go. If watch straps were my livelihood and I was losing business to this other company (how would you necessarily know) I might be tempted to make a bigger deal of it.

Life isn't fair, business isn't either. I wish you luck whichever decision you choose!

[Gregspitz]

No malice or anger here. and these are not OEM straps that are being sold..they are an aftermarket company that has a popular website for watch information that is highly respected for their ethics. My straps are custom and this does not affect me at all and as a matter of fact I think the owners of the website DON'T know that they are machine sewn. Personally I do not want to advertise this but I let them know that they are either being misled by their manufacturer or misleading their customers...Just thought it was an interesting topic to throw around and see what people think

thanks

they clearly say hand sewn in their ad.

[soccerdad]

If the group is respected for its ethics, then it seems likely they'd want to know if they are publishing accurate information regarding the straps, including in advertising. Rather than posting on the site for all to see, perhaps you could email and open a civil conversation, just as you've done here. Perhaps they'd follow up with the advertiser.

[Gregspitz]

I did email them and just waiting for a response..

[Art]

Hi Greg,

I remember seeing straps from COUSU MAIN that also had an Omega stamp on the inside liner. If it is the same company, then they are doing OEM work.

Art

[Gregspitz]

Cousu Main just means hand made in French and it is on several hand made straps from several companies

[cjmt]

It irritates me too when people do that. Hand made means many things to many people, including pushing a watch strap through a sewing machine. If you can be completely sure your right I would privately make sure the claim was taken off their website. Hand sewn has to mean hand sewn or it devalues the work of everyone who really does hand sew

Charlie

[soccerdad]

Amen, brother.

[Tugadude]

Perhaps, if you don't get any satisfactory response, you can stress hand stitched in your own ads. Such as, "All straps hand stitched using two needles and premium, waxed thread, unlike some other companies which use machines." Or something like that.

[Gregspitz]

I will update this thread when I get a response from the email I sent.

Thanks for all the replies.

[Tugadude]

Good luck!

[Gregspitz]

here is the "hand Sewn"strap from the back

[Techsew Ron]

here is the "hand Sewn"strap from the back

hand sewn..with a machine.

[gottaknow]

I do see some hand sewing, and some badly adjusted machine sewing. But their claim of hand sewn is for the most part accurate, even if it's just the loop.

Regards, Eric

[soccerdad]

If only the loop is hand-sewn, then it would be correct to say it's "partly hand sewn" or "includes hand stitching" or whatever. But to call it "hand sewn" without qualification implies that the whole item is stitched without use of a machine. At least, that's how I hear it.

[soccerdad]

This is a gray area in some ways, I agree, as I think more about it.

Does it help to look at this question in another medium? One take: If I make a table from wood, my preferred method is to mill rough-sawn stock by machine (power planer, table saw, etc.), then cut the joints using traditional, meat-powered hand tools (hand planes, hand saws, chisels, rasps, etc.) and smooth the surfaces with a hand plane. If I were taking care to be accurate, I might describe the table as having hand-cut joinery or hand-cut mortise and tenon joints, and then go on to describe the qualities of surfaces from a smoothing plane versus a hand-held power sander, etc. I could not call the table "completely hand made" or the like. If I set up a drill press or a mortising machine to cut the mortises and used a router or band saw to cut the tenons, I would not call the joints "hand cut" even though I operate those machines with my hands.

Another way to ponder it might be in terms of David Pye's "workmanship of risk" vs. "workmanship of certainty." Workmanship of risk describes hand-guided work that could fail at any moment because of human error. Workmanship of certainty describes a type of production where the outcome is more or less guaranteed. If I understand correctly, the type of machine sewing we are talking about with the watch bands is hand-guided and so could fail for want of skill or concentration or other human error. In that sense, you could make a case for calling it hand sewn, and maybe that's what Ron was getting at. Flip side, strictly from a language point of view, to my ear, the first connotation of "hand sewn" is stitching done without the aid of machine.

Getting back to the start of this thread ... in advertisements for public consumption, companies should use language so that consumers can understand their meaning. If "hand sewn" means "hand guided sewing machines" to people working inside the leather industry, that's fine inside the confines of the factory. Every field has its own lingo, and sometimes words overlap with common parlance even when meanings don't. So, if "hand sewn" means "no machine" to John and Jane Q Public, then that's the meaning companies should stick to in advertising.

Disclaimers: I'm just trying to think this over during lunch on a Tuesday in February. I make no claims to omniscience, and I reserve the right to change my mind tomorrow. I imply no value judgements regarding machine vs hand work -- high quality work (and garbage) can come from both methods. I expect others to offer different views, and I look forward to hearing them.

[Gregspitz]

I think it takes skill and know how to operate an industrial sewing machine which is proven by all the threads here with people asking questions on how to do this and that.

My favorite part of making straps is sewing them with one of my machines! Hats off to those who hand sew also though!

Great discussion..thanks for participating!

[Gregspitz]

here is another one on a $450 strap different company...knots showing on the top..my worst nightmare!!!

oh the humanity!!!

[gottaknow]

We call our leather watchbands "hand crafted". They are cut out with a clicker, hand dyed, hand burnished, then machine sewn. The final finish is also applied by hand. Our machine stitching is about the finest of any I've seen as we take the time to groove the stitch line. That is done by hand. Hand sewn, no, hand crafted yes. I imagine our legal department are the ones who decided how to describe them.

We don't worry about what our competitors do, we believe all of our products are the best money can buy which is why we guarantee everything for life, no questions asked. As a side note, another subsidiary of our company actually makes the watches in our Detroit factory. They are gorgeous.

Regards, Eric

[lowes48]

I refer to my straps (and everything else I make) as 100% completely hand made - hand cut, hand marked, hand sewn, every step. The whole "hand made" issue is aggravating to me as a maker also. But from what I've found the guys and gals that are REALLY into whatever hobby (guns, knives, watches, gadgets, outdoor/survival gear, etc.) know how to find US and appreciate the time and effort that goes into truly handmade, bespoke product! I say don't sweat it and let the minor league dealings go as they may!