Candy Stripe Saddle Stitch?

[Boriqua]

Martyn I LOVE it! Now I am prone to the shmancy side so it may just be me. So I am assuming you are just knotting the two different colored threads on the back side So one color starts on the back and one color starts on the front but I tried it and you will eventually have to cut that knot leaving one stitch on back not done I think. I am going to mess with it tomorrow as I have a holster set that this would be perfect for. Any advise if you care to share would be appreciated. Man this forum is awesome!

[plinkercases]

Gents this is a neat thread so to speak and got me thinking... My stitching is never angled on the front.

I always thought I was stitching as per the Stohlman hand sewing book but in fact just realised I had the awl orientation 45 degrees off.

I wanted to see what the effect was so I ran 4 quick tests changing 2 variables.. diamond awl orientation to the stitch line and which thread passed over which.

In all cases I am stitching towards me. Sorry fro the crap shots but all I had working was a phone.

What I discovered is that I think I will rotate my diamond all tip and keep using left under right thread. Then the slanted stitch comes to the front.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by plinkercases

[Martyn]

16 hours ago, Boriqua said:

So I am assuming you are just knotting the two different colored threads on the back side So one color starts on the back and one color starts on the front but I tried it and you will eventually have to cut that knot leaving one stitch on back not done I think.

Yeah, exactly that. You will have to cut the knot off and tuck one of the ends through. It's more secure if you backstitch - I figured out when you come to reverse direction, if you pass one needle through, pass it over the other thread and then back through the hole, you make a sort of lock stitch and can then backstitch as normal without messing up the two-tone pattern. But yes, starting and ending is a bit problematic. If you come up with a better way than the backstitch, please let me know.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Martyn

[Martyn]

14 hours ago, plinkercases said:

My stitching is never angled on the front.

I always thought I was stitching as per the Stohlman hand sewing book but in fact just realised I had the awl orientation 45 degrees off.

The first thing I would say is that if you are trying to refine your saddle stitch technique, dont use a groove tool and overstitch wheel. For 99% of stuff they are completely unnecessary anyway, but the groove will force the stitch to run in a straight line and the overstitch wheel will mechanically override the natural lay of the stitch, making it almost impossible to gauge the effect of changes to your technique. I'm no expert by any means, but i have gone through an awful lot of scrap leather in the last few months just trying to get my technique down and it is worth the effort.

There is no 'right' awl angle as such, you can adapt your sewing technique to suit whatever angle and direction you are sewing from, the trick is knowing what changes to make to maintain consistency. There is however a 'tradition' when it comes to angle. All the traditional pricking irons have the teeth angled in one direction. This is true for Dixons, Blanchard, Osborne or whoever and has been the same for a very, very long time. Basically, if you are sitting with the grain (front) of the leather to your right, then the angle of the stitch will be like this: / / / / / / / / / / / / / going away from you. If you are starting to sew from furthest away and working towards yourself, then cross the needles underneath, if you are starting close and stitching away, then cross the needles on top.

You certainly can (should) get good angled stitches front and back and every stitch looking the same. But I would start by getting rid of the groove tool and overstitch wheel. They just interfere with the natural lay of the stitch and stop you perfecting your technique. Just use a very light scratch to mark your line and then go for it. It's a bit of a shock to the system at first, but let the stitch do it's thing and if you get it right, it will form it's own pattern...

 

 

All my stitches look like this on the front now. The back does tend to lay flatter (without throwing a cast), but you can help get an angle there with how you hold the thread when you are passing the needle back through. If you tend to hold the thread up and away when passing the second needle back through, try holding it down and towards you. Also when tensioning the stitch, try pulling up and away with the left needle and down and towards you with the right needle. These two things definitely help put some angle into the back, but the best by far is to throw a cast loop onto the back. If you do that, you are guaranteed to get a good angle front and back every time.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Martyn

[plinkercases]

Martyn that is a good description in words and graphically.

I can see that if I adjust my awl angle 45 deg clockwise it is then as far as possible is slanted the same direction as the pricking irons.

Then if I cross the right side thread over the left as I always have I will get the look you in the photo.. and I just realized that I need to reverse the cross over  on the back so when bring the needed form the back it needs to cross over the  thread coming from the right. The I will get the slant on both sides.

I think your image of the stitches using the pricking iron will away shave slant then my using the diamond tip awl and keeping the diamond faces parallel to the stitch line. The awl is a more open parallelogram than the prick tips. The propose of the angles/sides/faces in the opening in the leather is still the same as it understand it which is to keep the stiches from pulling through. the Stohlman dwgs make this clear and I agree with why the awl is to be oriented as indicated.

I don't subscribe the theory that Stohlman only said to use the groover and overstitch because Tandy was paying him to move tools.... he and Anne placed more hand stitches on more heavy use projects than I ever will in 2 lifetimes and if the method was truly as weak as some say Stohlman saddles would not be around any more. Perhaps on thinner leather projects with finer stitching the groove should replaced with a line and I do that for sure but I would throw the whole set of tools out with the bath water.

That being said.......My next decision of course is the whole groove and over stitch conundrum. To be honest all my stitching for the last few years has run with no angle on the front and the angle on back overstitched out. I have always been presenting in line stiches and I am not adverse to the look. My experiment was to see the first state of the stitch just after placement not indicative of my end product.

As an awl user versus pricking irons and making each hole as I go the back groove line gives me a target to keep the hole at 90 degrees to the leather (which can be accomplished by a light scribe line as well..) and the overstitch from gives me my spacing. I imagine I can find a compromise where I still groove (front and line back)  and use the over stich to lightly mark my holes, adjust the awl angle, be aware of reversing the cast on the back side and I will get a degree of stitch angle on the from and the back.....

it is a different head space for sure.... I have always hammered the stitches and over stitched them front and back and am producing good, uniform stitch appearance back by the end of the process. Just not slanted.

All in all (or awl in awl) I think I will stick with the hand awl, and experiment with the other variables such as scribed lines and perhaps a light run with the overstitch wheel for spacing then NOT run over the stitches again... still flatten them though.

One thing that my current process of grooving and overstitching on damp edges is that even when died I can see the pathway clearly and the dimples actually help guide the awl into the right spacing. Place by feel as much by sight usually.

Good there is not right or wrong just that we each progress on our chosen path to a result we are pleased with.

Thanks for the enlightenment here and I have some new ideas to try out.

 

 

[Martyn]

and if the method was truly as weak as some say Stohlman saddles would not be around any more

I dont think it's weak - perhaps a little weak-er by virtue of cutting into the grain, but not weak. I doubt it makes any functional difference. It's not the reason I suggest to not use them. It's simply that changes to your technique are destroyed/hidden by them, so you cant see your own mistakes and cant evaluate your own development. I'm just suggesting if you are practising on scrap, try practising without them. It is *very* revealing. If you can get a good, traditional saddle stitch going without them, then you can always use the groover and O/S wheel on your finished items if you prefer the look. It's easy to add a groove any time you want and easy to run an O/S wheel if you want to. In my case though, once I had cracked a decent saddle stitch without them, they went in the bin (not literally, there are still a few times when I would use them, but you know what I mean). The groove and O/S wheel is a fashion thing though. This is a Swiss army backpack that I have been restoring. The leatherwork is date stamped 1949, it's almost 70 years old. The pack has had a very hard life and seen some serious abuse - but the linen thread has held up fine, not a groove or O/S in sight, just plain saddle stitch all over...

If you like the look of the O/S and groove, then fine, but it's absolutely not necessary. You almost never see it in European saddlery and there is plenty of old tack knocking around to prove it's not needed. It's a matter of personal taste, but personally, I would much rather see a good, traditional saddle stitch formed from good technique every time. Perhaps I'm feeling the bias because I've put a lot of effort into trying to do it myself, but to my eye, it's just so classy and if the stitching is good, it just seems a crime to force it to lay straight with a groove and crush the beauty out of it with a wheel.

 

I don't subscribe the theory that Stohlman only said to use the groover and overstitch because Tandy was paying him to move tools...

I agree, I doubt that was the reason. I suspect it was because he was pitching the guide at people who had little formal training and wanted to advise a method that gave them the best possible results for their skill level. The groover will keep the stitches straight and the O/S wheel will give them form. But neither do I think it's the gold standard.

Good there is not right or wrong just that we each progress on our chosen path to a result we are pleased with.

Absolutely. I'm not saying you or anyone *should* abandon the groover and O/S wheel for your finished items, it's a taste/fashion thing and whatever you like the look of, is all that matters. But when it comes to practice, if you practice without them, you will definitely challenge yourself. If you can get good without them, you'll be awesome with them and then you just pick what you like best.

I know this has been posted a million times, but the guy just blows me  away. The ease with which he can switch from left to right, front to back and any way up and his stitching is always bang on point.

 

[plinkercases]

I will definitely be looking at my method and result. I am not that old a  dog that I cant learn or see the value in new tricks.

I seen some of NA's videos but not this one I don't think and will certainly give it a look (again?),

Do you have a picture of a holster main seam with the un-grooved and traditional looking SS on it? I do a lot of non-pancake holsters and am curious just how the zig zig stich looks along an edge. I am making in e now with purely decorative stitching on the holster body and may go un-grooved or OS.... I may have just been converted!

Thanks for all your input.

 

[Boriqua]

1 minute ago, plinkercases said:

I will definitely be looking at my method and result. I am not that old a  dog that I cant learn or see the value in new tricks.

I seen some of NA's videos but not this one I don't think and will certainly give it a look (again?),

Do you have a picture of a holster main seam with the un-grooved and traditional looking SS on it? I do a lot of non-pancake holsters and am curious just how the zig zig stich looks along an edge. I am making in e now with purely decorative stitching on the holster body and may go un-grooved or OS.... I may have just been converted!

Thanks for all your input.

 

Certainly not great stitching but will give you an idea on a holster. I tried the groover and didnt like it and sold it immediately but to each their own. I just really dig the zig zag when I get it right. Here it is at 6spi with an awl

 

[plinkercases]

I believe I am seeing the light.

Thanks guys.

 

[plinkercases]

So now my question is who used what pricking irons? and from where? I am not going to Tandy for these unless folk shave had resounding success.

What I combination of stitch pacing and number of pricks seem to cover most needs? I do a lot of curved stitch lines......