Candy Stripe Saddle Stitch?

[Martyn]

Candy stripe saddle stitch, is it really cheesy or really cool, I cant decide?

I tried a test piece with black and white thread today and I dont know if it's just the novelty factor, but I cant stop looking at it, but I dont know if it's because I think it's cool, or cheesy. What do you think?

Front (click to zoom)

Back (click to zoom)

....on a side note, I've started putting a cast in my stitching and it's dramatically improved the lay of the stitches on the back, but it's had a negative effect on the front. The front isn't as curvy any more. Has anyone else noted that putting a cast in changes the front of the stitch as well as the back? Or am I doing something different?

Cheers,

Martyn.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Martyn

[billybopp]

Hmmm. It's not a style that would work for anything, but in certain applications it could look awesome! Picture a Christmas bag or ornament using red and white, for example.

Good job!

Bill

[Tugadude]

Regarding casting, it all depends upon the whole process. Simply casting affects the stitch, but LH and RH priority does too. What side is the grain side on when you stitch? Are the holes angling down towards you or away? Which needle goes in first, which needle is in front when you cross? It all matters.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Tugadude

[Martyn]

Regarding casting, it all depends upon the whole process. Simply casting affects the stitch, but LH and RH priority does too. What side is the grain side on when you stitch? Are the holes angling down towards you or away? Which needle goes in first, which needle is in front when you cross? It all matters.

Yeah, I'm still trying to get to grips with all this. I know that if you change one or more of these things, then 'something' changes on the stitch. What I'm trying to do, is get to the point where I can control it. In the above example, I'm stitching with the face/grain on the right (though it is two bits glued flesh to flesh in reality), first needle goes in from the left (flesh). The holes are angled up and away from me and I'm stitching towards me, so I'm crossing the needles underneath and on the right/grain.

All good so far, I'm getting a nice, curvy, eye-shaped stitch on the grain, but it's a bit flat and a bit inconsistent on the flesh.

So I throw in a single cast on the left, going under. The stitch on the flesh side dramatically improves, to the point where it's actually better than the grain side (see picks above). The only thing I've changed, is to cast the loop. The back gets a lot better, but the front gets worse. I've tried reversing the whole lot to make the back (now the prettier side) into the front, but I'm right handed and I find doing everything the other way round, quite awkward, particularly crossing the needles with my left hand. Overall I'm not unhappy. I mean I think the stitching above looks OK. But I'm just wondering is there is a way to make it better? Is there something I could change or do differently? Do others notice a deterioration in the face side stitch when they cast a loop on the back? Or have I got to the point now where I just need to point thousands of hours in for the consistency?

Thanks,

Martyn.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Martyn

[Tugadude]

As an experiment, try RH needle first, cross with the LH needle behind. Make sure the LH needle goes in the bottom of the hole and then cast the thread on the right side, the one you started from. This is the way I stitch mostly and I get a nice angle on both sides.

[TinkerTailor]

One thing the alternating thread color does is prove without a doubt that it is hand saddle stitched. Machines can not do this.

[Martyn]

I still cant decide if it's cool or cheesy. I tried it with black and dark brown thinking that a more subtle contrast might work well, but my dark brown thread is almost black and the effect was lost. I'm thinking a mid-brown and tan might look good?

One problem is how to start and finish it? Backstitching causes two contrasting stitches to sit in the same holes and it looks odd. Any tips?

[Tugadude]

I wouldn't say cheesy, but be careful about overdoing it, I would say. Still, it is interesting and perhaps might lend itself to being a "signature" touch.

Instead of backstitching, just stop and melt the ends if it isn't a high stress area. If it is, maybe loop around the edge twice and then tuck the ends in.

[Martyn]

I wouldn't say cheesy, but be careful about overdoing it, I would say. Still, it is interesting and perhaps might lend itself to being a "signature" touch.

I like the signature touch idea. I just did a few more rows. the middle is plain cream, but the top and bottom are a mix of dark brown and black. It's really hard to tell. You pretty much have to be in direct sunlight to spot it.

Front...

Back....

As an experiment, try RH needle first, cross with the LH needle behind. Make sure the LH needle goes in the bottom of the hole and then cast the thread on the right side, the one you started from. This is the way I stitch mostly and I get a nice angle on both sides.

I tried your suggestion. In the above pics the bottom two rows are done as I have been doing, first needle from the left, crossing on the right, making the cast on the left. On the top row, I switched it all round. It took me 4x longer to stitch as it feels unfamiliar and I have to think about what I'm doing. I'm not sure if it looks better or not ...or if the differences are just down to my lack of consistency and mediocre skill. I dont think I see enough of a difference to make the switch to be honest. Part of the issue is that I've been practising stitching with an awl. I'm right hand dominant so I'm using the awl from the right and then as I remove the awl, following it with the first needle from the left. I've used a chisel to make the holes in the above, but for consistency, still use the same technique - only instead of going in with the awl first, I open the hole up with my right hand needle and then follow it out with the first needle from the left. This means I'm changing very little when alternating between using a chisel and an awl.

I suppose I could make the hole with the awl, pull it out and then go in with the first needle from the right also, but it feels like adding an extra step. I would do it if it made a difference to my stitching though. But I'm not seeing much. What do you think?

Cheers,

Martyn.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Martyn

[Tugadude]

I disagree that your stitching is mediocre, it is above average I'd say. Some stitches seem pulled tighter than others, that affects the look also. Did you tap the line of stitching down?

BTW, funny how the white row seems like bigger stitches...

[Martyn]

I disagree that your stitching is mediocre, it is above average I'd say. Some stitches seem pulled tighter than others, that affects the look also. Did you tap the line of stitching down?

BTW, funny how the white row seems like bigger stitches...

Thanks. I've a way to go yet though, I think.

Yeah, I tapped it down, I did with all of em. I think it's a bit of an illusion as they are all done with the same chisel and 0.8mm tiger, so should be the same (it's the same thread I used in the black and white candy stripe at the beginning). The chisel doesnt help though, it's a 5mm Seiwa (5spi) an the stitches are big sloppy things which just seem to magnify things like tensioning errors. I made a mistake buying it really. I've stuck with it hoping practice would get things looking better, but I cant see me ever using it to be honest.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Martyn

[Tugadude]

Try the next size up on your thread and see if that looks better to you

[Martyn]

I dont have a next size up.

I'm sure it would look better though. I'm just not keen on 5 spi. Besides, the weird thing with this chisel is I almost had to grab the pliers a couple of times, in spite of the fact it looks like there is a ton of room from the length of the cut. It's an odd chisel. I'd rather go smaller, it just looks so much nicer and everything seems so much more 'tuned' if that makes sense?

[Tugadude]

1.0 mm Tiger would be perfect for that Seiwa chisel. I would keep the iron for sheaths or other rugged applications where you want a chunky thread. You are achieving a nice row of stitching in any case, good luck.

[Martyn]

Been doing some more erxperiments with two tone stitching and different colours, here are the results...

The thread is all tiger thread, 0.8mm...



From left to right..

Black
Dark Brown
Havana
Amberglow
Beige
Cream

The black and cream I've already done above and wont bother with here, as the brown is very close to the black anyway.

Brown and Havana...



Brown and Amberglow...



Brown and Beige...



Havanna and Beige...



Havana and Amberglow...



Amberglow and Beige...

The pics dont tell the whole story. In the flesh, the top three - the ones with dark brown in them are definitely the best looking ...at least on a dark background they are. Both me and the wife agreed the top one, brown and Havanna was the best of the bunch. The lighter, lower contrast combos look good on natural leather,l but they are a bit muddy on a dark background. Brown and Havana definitely works though, it's a nice combo, obvious without being too in your face.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Martyn

[Grey Drakkon]

I think those look fantastic! You definitely wouldn't want to put it everywhere, but as an accent to draw the eye to a certain area it works great. I KNOW horse people would go bonkers with a nose band done that way.

[Martyn]

Yeah, I agree, they arent 'everyday' but for certain applications, they are awesome. They actually look a lot better from some distance too. The closeup pics dont really tell the story.

The combos with dark brown in em really pop, but they all look as different again on natural backgrounds. I'm gonna keep these tests and string em as swatches I think.

Oh and here's Harry the cat - he likes to help out...

:D

[jimmy eng]

I sometimes run a stitching wheel over my stitches after I tap it down, it seems to help align the stitches in my mind haha.

Is the cast not pulled into the centre of the stitches? Could that be the reason it favours one side?

[Martyn]

"I sometimes run a stitching wheel over my stitches after I tap it down, it seems to help align the stitches in my mind haha."

Get thee behind me Satan. Ha.

Seriously, I get that people are happy to use them, but they are a get-around that shouldn't be needed really, IMO. I like to see the stitch lay on the surface in just the way it was sewn. A saddle stitch is a beautiful thing in my eye, that's kind of spoiled a bit when you run mechanical devices over it.

"Is the cast not pulled into the centre of the stitches? Could that be the reason it favours one side?"

Yes, I think you are absolutely right. It always does favour one side. I figured out how to control it though, it's just a question of reversing the stitch.  My first needle tends to be from the left, so my cast is on the left and the prettier stitch is on the left. If I switch so my first needle is from the right (usually the face of the work), then the cast is also on the right and the prettier side gets presented on the right. The only problem is I'm right handed, so I always use the awl in my right hand, which is why my first needle is from the left (following the awl out). So switching from left to right hand needle priority is not going to happen for me if I'm sewing using an awl - not unless I add an extra step and use the left hand needle as a place holder - if that makes sense?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Martyn

[Colt W Knight]

Alternating colors would look nice on western style guitar straps. I like the look. I would use it on anything that needs a little flair and has two tone brown dye job.

[Boriqua]

Martyn I LOVE it! Now I am prone to the shmancy side so it may just be me. So I am assuming you are just knotting the two different colored threads on the back side So one color starts on the back and one color starts on the front but I tried it and you will eventually have to cut that knot leaving one stitch on back not done I think. I am going to mess with it tomorrow as I have a holster set that this would be perfect for. Any advise if you care to share would be appreciated. Man this forum is awesome!

[plinkercases]

Gents this is a neat thread so to speak and got me thinking... My stitching is never angled on the front.

I always thought I was stitching as per the Stohlman hand sewing book but in fact just realised I had the awl orientation 45 degrees off.

I wanted to see what the effect was so I ran 4 quick tests changing 2 variables.. diamond awl orientation to the stitch line and which thread passed over which.

In all cases I am stitching towards me. Sorry fro the crap shots but all I had working was a phone.

What I discovered is that I think I will rotate my diamond all tip and keep using left under right thread. Then the slanted stitch comes to the front.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by plinkercases

[Martyn]

16 hours ago, Boriqua said:

So I am assuming you are just knotting the two different colored threads on the back side So one color starts on the back and one color starts on the front but I tried it and you will eventually have to cut that knot leaving one stitch on back not done I think.

Yeah, exactly that. You will have to cut the knot off and tuck one of the ends through. It's more secure if you backstitch - I figured out when you come to reverse direction, if you pass one needle through, pass it over the other thread and then back through the hole, you make a sort of lock stitch and can then backstitch as normal without messing up the two-tone pattern. But yes, starting and ending is a bit problematic. If you come up with a better way than the backstitch, please let me know.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Martyn

[Martyn]

14 hours ago, plinkercases said:

My stitching is never angled on the front.

I always thought I was stitching as per the Stohlman hand sewing book but in fact just realised I had the awl orientation 45 degrees off.

The first thing I would say is that if you are trying to refine your saddle stitch technique, dont use a groove tool and overstitch wheel. For 99% of stuff they are completely unnecessary anyway, but the groove will force the stitch to run in a straight line and the overstitch wheel will mechanically override the natural lay of the stitch, making it almost impossible to gauge the effect of changes to your technique. I'm no expert by any means, but i have gone through an awful lot of scrap leather in the last few months just trying to get my technique down and it is worth the effort.

There is no 'right' awl angle as such, you can adapt your sewing technique to suit whatever angle and direction you are sewing from, the trick is knowing what changes to make to maintain consistency. There is however a 'tradition' when it comes to angle. All the traditional pricking irons have the teeth angled in one direction. This is true for Dixons, Blanchard, Osborne or whoever and has been the same for a very, very long time. Basically, if you are sitting with the grain (front) of the leather to your right, then the angle of the stitch will be like this: / / / / / / / / / / / / / going away from you. If you are starting to sew from furthest away and working towards yourself, then cross the needles underneath, if you are starting close and stitching away, then cross the needles on top.

You certainly can (should) get good angled stitches front and back and every stitch looking the same. But I would start by getting rid of the groove tool and overstitch wheel. They just interfere with the natural lay of the stitch and stop you perfecting your technique. Just use a very light scratch to mark your line and then go for it. It's a bit of a shock to the system at first, but let the stitch do it's thing and if you get it right, it will form it's own pattern...

 

 

All my stitches look like this on the front now. The back does tend to lay flatter (without throwing a cast), but you can help get an angle there with how you hold the thread when you are passing the needle back through. If you tend to hold the thread up and away when passing the second needle back through, try holding it down and towards you. Also when tensioning the stitch, try pulling up and away with the left needle and down and towards you with the right needle. These two things definitely help put some angle into the back, but the best by far is to throw a cast loop onto the back. If you do that, you are guaranteed to get a good angle front and back every time.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Martyn

[plinkercases]

Martyn that is a good description in words and graphically.

I can see that if I adjust my awl angle 45 deg clockwise it is then as far as possible is slanted the same direction as the pricking irons.

Then if I cross the right side thread over the left as I always have I will get the look you in the photo.. and I just realized that I need to reverse the cross over  on the back so when bring the needed form the back it needs to cross over the  thread coming from the right. The I will get the slant on both sides.

I think your image of the stitches using the pricking iron will away shave slant then my using the diamond tip awl and keeping the diamond faces parallel to the stitch line. The awl is a more open parallelogram than the prick tips. The propose of the angles/sides/faces in the opening in the leather is still the same as it understand it which is to keep the stiches from pulling through. the Stohlman dwgs make this clear and I agree with why the awl is to be oriented as indicated.

I don't subscribe the theory that Stohlman only said to use the groover and overstitch because Tandy was paying him to move tools.... he and Anne placed more hand stitches on more heavy use projects than I ever will in 2 lifetimes and if the method was truly as weak as some say Stohlman saddles would not be around any more. Perhaps on thinner leather projects with finer stitching the groove should replaced with a line and I do that for sure but I would throw the whole set of tools out with the bath water.

That being said.......My next decision of course is the whole groove and over stitch conundrum. To be honest all my stitching for the last few years has run with no angle on the front and the angle on back overstitched out. I have always been presenting in line stiches and I am not adverse to the look. My experiment was to see the first state of the stitch just after placement not indicative of my end product.

As an awl user versus pricking irons and making each hole as I go the back groove line gives me a target to keep the hole at 90 degrees to the leather (which can be accomplished by a light scribe line as well..) and the overstitch from gives me my spacing. I imagine I can find a compromise where I still groove (front and line back)  and use the over stich to lightly mark my holes, adjust the awl angle, be aware of reversing the cast on the back side and I will get a degree of stitch angle on the from and the back.....

it is a different head space for sure.... I have always hammered the stitches and over stitched them front and back and am producing good, uniform stitch appearance back by the end of the process. Just not slanted.

All in all (or awl in awl) I think I will stick with the hand awl, and experiment with the other variables such as scribed lines and perhaps a light run with the overstitch wheel for spacing then NOT run over the stitches again... still flatten them though.

One thing that my current process of grooving and overstitching on damp edges is that even when died I can see the pathway clearly and the dimples actually help guide the awl into the right spacing. Place by feel as much by sight usually.

Good there is not right or wrong just that we each progress on our chosen path to a result we are pleased with.

Thanks for the enlightenment here and I have some new ideas to try out.