Stitches on repaired machine: ready to rock-n-roll?

[llucas]

I posted this on my Adler 205-374 repair posting, but that series seems to have gone past its shelf life. So, I will ask the question again outside of that context.

I think I have the Beast repaired to the point I can use it to stitch belts and holsters, but as a novice I am not certain. Here are photos of practice samples for free-handing and turning 90 degree corners. On the advice of another gun belt maker I went to 277 for the top thread and 207 for the bottom thread, changing to a 25 needle, five stitches per inch. I need feedback about whether or not you think the Beast is ready to rock-n-roll or whether it needs more fine-tuning. I have received great advice on this forum and value your opinions.

Here is the top stitch of a sample. The new open toe center presser foot leaves marks, but I plan to ease the edges and polish the bottom:

 

Here is the bottom stitch

Here is the top stitch from a better angle. The belts I make will have a groove or crease to help bring the stitch flush.

 

Do you think the machine is ready to rock-n-roll, or does it need more adjusting?

Edited March 26, 2016 by llucas

[Trox]

Looking good! perhaps a bit more thread tension on both top and bottom will make a better looking stitch. However, it much up to the type of needle you use. Using a LR needle point will get you a more saddle stitch looking seam, but might cut threads on backtacking. Shorter stitch often look better too.

Tor  

[llucas]

Trox, thanks for the observations. Much appreciated. Now that you mention it, the commercial belt maker who advised me uses seven stitches per inch and his belts are being sold by a large company and are in demand by customers. My hand stitched belts are seven per inch, but it is with thinner thread. I will keep working on the tension, thanks. The needles I use are Schmetz spear point.  Here is a sample from a few days ago using 346 thread on top and 277 on bottom with four stitches per inch. The shorter stitches approaching the 90 degree turns are from using the reverse lever to position the needle for the turn, but admittedly, I was not concerned about straight lines or spacing. The odd thing is in reversing the stitch the tread "crossed" the underlying thread after each hole.

I appreciate the help I have received on this forum. It has helped make the acquisition of a new skill easier and less baffling. I am starting to think I won't have to return to hand stitching belts, lol.

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by llucas

[llucas]

Instead of risking an entire belt, I made a five inch "belt" from scrap leather, grooved a stitch line and finished it as I would a normal belt. I changed the stitch length to seven stitches per inch and had a go with 277 on top and 207 on bottom. What do you think? Apart from the need to polish the bottom of the center presser foot and adjust for no marking of the leather, do you think the repaired Adler 205-374 is ready to rock-n-roll?

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by llucas

[Trox]

Hi Lucas! stitch length (or SPI in your country) is a matter of taste. Some old harness makers hand sewed bridles with 14 stitches per inch, the more stitches per inch the higher the work was regarded. In the beginning making leather works I thought long stitches was looking nice, now I'm leaning more the other way. Especially the saddle stitch look more beautiful with more stitches per inch, the stitches forms a better angle. To a certain degree more stitches are stronger too, as long as you don't over due it and perforating the leather totally. I often use Texas 346 (TKT 8) polyester thread with a Nm 230 LR needle (Schmetz, Singer size approx 26) on my 441 machine. Mostly my stitches are around the number 4 on the stitch length lever. That would be 4 mm stitch length of course, converted to SPI it would be about 6,25 stitches per inch. My 441 clone have enormous maximum stitch length of 15 mm. (1,66 SPI). It should not have more than 12 mm. max, according to the manual.  The first tripple feed Adler 205 was the 205 -74, built on the famous 205-64 needle feed. They added an extra shaft for the top feed to it. Your -374 where the second generation, first with the shuttle shims/spacer who allowed use of a larger needle. I do not remember the spec. on it, pretty much the same as the -370. You can easily find out going to the world of Dürkopp-Adler parts download  http://sew24.blogspo 

There you will find what documentation who are available on it, if you haven't done so already. I think yours is very similar to the sub cl. -370; max stich length 10 mm., foot lift 20 mm. and max needle size Nm 300; with the largest shuttle shim. They sell 5 different such shims/spacers, for different maximum needle sizes. Your Adler where the first 205 who had this system, ensuring optimal clearance  between hook and needle at all the needle sizes.  I think your stitches look good now, white is always better looking on natural leather too. It's not "odd" That the stitches are crossed on the back tack; the needle will alway bend and take the easiest path. Try experiencing with other needle points too, see what you like the best. Now people tend to like what looks most traditional/old fashion, real leather; natural materials and craftsmanship. The LR needle imitates hand sewing, that's whats people really wants.

Tor

      

[Trox]

I did not see that post before posting my long answer. I think your machine is ready to go now. Perhaps that was a bit to short stitches for the straight stitch appearance. It looks like it's made in a factory, if that's what you want, then it's good. This is pretty much up to what you like yourself (application and material thickness of course), I would have used a bit longer stitches for this straight seam (spear point needle). When stitches are angled like the LR needle, stitches would look ugly when they are to long. Straight stitches is a different ball game. The stitch quality look very good now.

Tor 

[llucas]

Thanks, Tor, your feedback is appreciated. I am now interested in trying the LR needle, since my hand stitched belts have that traditional saddle stitch pattern. I lean toward the longer stitch length; especially for the heavier thread (346 to 415) I like the look of a little longer stitch length. I am trying to avoid the made in a factory look, so I will experiment more with the stitch length with these spear point needles. The documentation you mention for the Adler 205 series that is available online I have downloaded. I have most of the spacers for the various needle sizes. I used the service manual for the 205-370 as I was making adjustments to this machine. I appreciate your comments about the color of the thread. On the samples above (except for the finished sample) I used what was in the machine when I sat down to practice. I like the lighter threads on natural to light brown. On the finished sample above I used black since the edges of the scrap piece of leather were dyed black. I have been tempted a few times to return to hand stitching my work, but the encouragement of those on this forum keeps me at the task of learning to sew on a machine and repairing the Adler 205-374. Thanks again for your feedback. Very helpful, indeed.

Larry

Edited March 26, 2016 by llucas

[Trox]

The Adler is a very good machine, I had several and still use one Dürkopp-Adler ( and two older I'm not using). You will learn to love in time. Industrial sewing machines are not only to press a pedal and sew, it takes time to master properly. Attachments/accessories is also important, you will find out soon enough. Finally you will be rewarded, because that Adler can sew almost anything you trow at it. In that same forum you can find special attachment and parts no longer available (sew24) It's the head of spare parts DA machines Thomas Brinkhoff that runs that blog. http://www.kwokhing. 

has some reasonable priced presserfoot, plates etc, for your machine.  

Good luck

Tor

[llucas]

4 hours ago, Trox said:

The Adler is a very good machine, I had several and still use one Dürkopp-Adler ( and two older I'm not using). You will learn to love in time. Industrial sewing machines are not only to press a pedal and sew, it takes time to master properly. Attachments/accessories is also important, you will find out soon enough. Finally you will be rewarded, because that Adler can sew almost anything you trow at it. In that same forum you can find special attachment and parts no longer available (sew24) It's the head of spare parts DA machines Thomas Brinkhoff that runs that blog. http://www.kwokhing. 

has some reasonable priced presserfoot, plates etc, for your machine.  

Good luck

Tor

It is definitely a steep learning curve for me. I had no idea stitching with a machine could be so complex and machine repair even more complex. This forum has helped immensely.

[Colt W Knight]

17 hours ago, llucas said:

Instead of risking an entire belt, I made a five inch "belt" from scrap leather, grooved a stitch line and finished it as I would a normal belt. I changed the stitch length to seven stitches per inch and had a go with 277 on top and 207 on bottom. What do you think? Apart from the need to polish the bottom of the center presser foot and adjust for no marking of the leather, do you think the repaired Adler 205-374 is ready to rock-n-roll?

 

I bet if you take a smooth faced hammer, and tap those stitches just a bit it will look even better. When I sew belts, I use a bit longer stitch length, but not much. 

[Trox]

Yes after I hammered the stitch to lock them, I run a over stitch wheel. Let's say # 6, measure up the stitch length on the machine with that (before I sew of course). Run that wheel to make a nice stitch, just like you do on hand stitching. It's an very important step to hammer the seam.

Tor

[llucas]

I did not hammer the stitches on the last sample, but I think you are right, it would have helped. Here is a tool with a narrow flat edge I was thinking of making for the purpose of flattening stitches. I suppose it would be easier to grind the end of an old 1 1/2" chisel to the width of about a 415 thread. I have looked for a similar tool but have not found one -- all I have seen are hammers and seam rollers.

The feed back is appreciated.

Edited March 27, 2016 by llucas

[llucas]

I have used a regular carpenters hammer on occasion, but have been looking at this one. Has anyone used this one or something similar? What did you think of the result using this kind of hammer? The catalog description says it is good for tapping stitches.

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by llucas

[llucas]

Tor, you made me curious so I am ordering some Schmetz 794LR-200 needles to try out. Thanks.

[Trox]

Hi Lucas,  you are using machine thread, not waxed linen. The thread will not lay flat, the purpose of hammering the stitches are to close the leather around the tread. If a stitch brakes later, the hole seam will not unravel. Do not beat it to hard, then the leather will be thinner, wider and damaged inside. Just hard enough to close the seam. Then you can use a over stitch wheel (or a Tandy pricking wheel, it's formed like a over stitch wheel anyway). The wheel will make the seam nice and natural again. I mostly  prefer the use of a French shoe hammer, it has a big polished face. It looks very similar to that Osborne hammer, but the face is a bit more rounded. That hammer looks good for the job, I like them with a bit rounder face, though (that's not necessary). I sometimes use a Blanchard saddlers hammer, when the shoe hammer is to big or to far away on the bench.  It's  much like the CS Osborne # 55 saddlers hammer and are good for many things (forming leather, drive tacks etc). But the one in your pic is better for hammering seams, the face on the saddlers hammer is a bit to small. (Then it's easy to beat to hard, less surface and more pressure). There are other hammers that can be used, like a car bodywork hammer etc. Remember to polish the face on it on a buffing wheel etc, using grinding/polishing paste.  Otherwise it will stain the natural leather (vegtan).  A Carpenter hammer is not good for the job, it's to coarse, heavy and sharp sided. If that Osborne hammer or other leather hammer are to expensive, have a look in a shop wit inexpensive tools. Look for something that can be altered/polished in to a good leather hammer. I have a several different old leather hammers, tack hammers, upholstery hammers and saddlers hammers. A good leather hammer is an important and much used tool and so is a good anvil.

Tor 

[llucas]

Thanks for the information, Tor. All my experience until now is hand stitching. Using a stitching wheel or a pricking punch with an awl, the holes made with an awl normally close up pretty quickly and tapping the stitches was rarely necessary, if at all. Stitching with a machine is a new animal for me. One example: the stitches on the back side of the leather is not nearly as nice as hand stitching. At some point I will pick up the finer points and actually be able to sew a proper job with this machine. I appreciate you and others on this forum providing good information that helps me along this path. Thanks.

Edited March 28, 2016 by llucas

[Trox]

You will never be able to imitate good hand sewing on a machine, stitches will alway looks uglier on the back side. Something related to the needle punch out, feed dog and plate. Machine sewing is for saving time and labor costs only. Proper hand stitching will always be stronger and more beautiful. With softer lining on the back side, the bottom stitches will look better. 

Good luck

Tor   

[llucas]

21 hours ago, Trox said:

You will never be able to imitate good hand sewing on a machine, stitches will alway looks uglier on the back side. Something related to the needle punch out, feed dog and plate. Machine sewing is for saving time and labor costs only. Proper hand stitching will always be stronger and more beautiful. With softer lining on the back side, the bottom stitches will look better. 

Good luck

Tor   

I have to agree with you: hand stitching is much nicer. But with demand building for the belts and holsters, I can no longer afford the time. It is not cost effective. I like your comment about the softer leather on the back. I am thinking of switching to English Bridle leather for the front, but staying with natural veg tan for the back.

[llucas]

Based on the comments here, I nervously sewed my first belt on the Beast today. Since I did not like the stitches on the back when I did the finished sample posted above, I decided I would sew first (since the belt will be dyed black) and do edges and apply finishes after stitching. The Beast chugged along about one stitch per second -- slow compared to the skills of others, but much, much faster than my hand stitching. I also reduced the number of stitches per inch to five instead of the seven pictured in the above post. The top thread is 277 and the bottom thread is 207.

Here is the front stitch:

 

Here is the back stitch:

I did not use the edge guide; free handed it instead. I should have used the edge guide, lol. Comments/criticisms are welcome.

Edited March 29, 2016 by llucas

[dikman]

Yes, I found an edge guide to be indispensable on anything longer than a couple of inches!! Actually, I reckon it looks good (bottom too) and once it's dyed and finished off it'll probably look even better!

[llucas]

4 minutes ago, dikman said:

Yes, I found an edge guide to be indispensable on anything longer than a couple of inches!! Actually, I reckon it looks good (bottom too) and once it's dyed and finished off it'll probably look even better!

I'll put up a photo or two when the belt  is finished. Thanks for your feedback. I will definitely use that edge guide next time, lol.

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by llucas

[Colt W Knight]

Nothing wrong with that stitching. Once you get some practice in with the edge guide, you can sew that belt in about 30-45 seconds.

 

[llucas]

23 hours ago, Colt W Knight said:

Nothing wrong with that stitching. Once you get some practice in with the edge guide, you can sew that belt in about 30-45 seconds.

 

Thanks, Colt. I am almost done with the belt and I post a few pics in a day or two. It definitely looks better now.

[llucas]

Ok, here is the first complete belt stitched on the Beast. What do you think?

 

[llucas]

A few more for perspective.