puckers in waxed canvas stitching

[georgeandgracie]

Using my existing table and servo makes good sense. Certainly I don't have room to have two machines set up.

I might be able to use my Necchi BU if I stuck to size 69 thread and 8.25 ounce waxed canvas, which is the weight that is giving me the most problems with puckering. The trouble is that the polyester thread is so unruly and the machine lacks adequate means to tame it.

[Uwe]

Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not following the logic on why a needle feed machine would cause less puckering than a compound (top+bottom+needle) feed machine. Can somebody elaborate on why and how a compound feed would cause more puckering?

The only thing I can come up with is that a needle feed machine may not move the material 100% of the way, but only, say, 95% due to the needle flexing a little as it's pulling the material forward. That slightly shortened material movement may alleviate puckering.  A properly adjusted compound feed machine will move the material 100% of the way (which is the point of that design).

Edited May 22, 2016 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

4 hours ago, Uwe said:

Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not following the logic on why a needle feed machine would cause less puckering than a compound (top+bottom+needle) feed machine. Can somebody elaborate on why and how a compound feed would cause more puckering?

The only thing I can come up with is that a needle feed machine may not move the material 100% of the way, but only, say, 95% due to the needle flexing a little as it's pulling the material forward. That slightly shortened material movement may alleviate puckering.  A properly adjusted compound feed machine will move the material 100% of the way (which is the point of that design).

It's not that a compound feed isn't suitable for waxed canvas, it's just not necessary to produce a perfectly flat seam. Our company produces many waxed canvas products like jackets and chaps, pants, luggage, hats etc. our standard machine is the Juki 9010A. Our double needle machine is the Juki 3578A in 1/4" gauge. They are much faster than any compound feed machine available. That's why we use them. Sure we could use a walking foot machine, but our cost of manufacturing would increase. I do use walking foot machines for doing binding. We slit our own canvas for binding, and it's pretty slippery. Speed is less of an issue with binding and doesn't add much additional cost in that type of operation. We also use a lot of chainstitch machines on our "tin cloth", as we call it. The flatbed chain of choice is the Singer 300W, a magnificent needle feed machine. I have many different gauge sets for doing different operations. We full fell the jackets and pants and for closing the sleeves and inseams we use the Union Special 35800 feed off the arm machine, operations you can't perform on a flatbed. It's a double needle drop feed with a close-coupled puller. We also use overlock machines (type of chain stitch) to prevent any raw edges from unraveling. The have a differential feed system where there are two sets of feed dogs that is used to manage any puckering issues. The feed dogs can be set to travel at different rates, the rear set will usually move faster than the front set inducing a slight stretch making the seam perfectly flat.  Those machines are the Union Special 39500QW. The heavy version used for out seams is a Union Special 39800CY. It has a split tractor foot that will sew over densely thick seams without flag skipping. It's also a misconception about using bonded nylon or polyester thread to get the best results on plain canvas or waxed. Because the fabric is cotton, the bonded thread becomes a saw blade on the much weaker fibers of cotton. We use a polyester core thread wrapped with cotton, in T60. We also use T80 in the same thread. Apparel has to flex as it's worn and that flex with bonded thread will destroy a seam. We guarantee all of our products for life. 

I say all that simply to say that yes, you can get acceptable results with a walking foot machine, but the additional cost offers no improvement over a properly adjusted needle feed. There are also many more presser foot options which we have to have in manufacturing. For binding, absolutely I love my walkers.

Regards, Eric 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by gottaknow

[Uwe]

Thanks Eric. I totally get that for a large operation like yours there are different considerations and decision criteria in play, compared to a craft person with one or two machines in the shop. In a factory the question usually is "which machine is the best option for this particular sewing operation?" For a crafter, the question usually is "How can I adjust this one versatile machine I have to do this particular sewing operation well?"

I have a strong feeling that a compound feed sewing machine is perfectly capable of producing non-puckered seams on waxed canvas, given the right thread, presser feet, and adjustments. I also strongly suspect that thread tension top+bottom plays a big role in puckering or lack thereof, contrary to statements made earlier in the thread.

Waxed canvas has been on my to-try list for a while. I just got a sample book of waxed canvas from Carr Textile  and I'm going to order a few yards to experiment with.

 

[gottaknow]

20 minutes ago, Uwe said:

Thanks Eric. I totally get that for a large operation like yours there are different considerations and decision criteria in play, compared to a craft person with one or two machines in the shop. In a factory the question usually is "which machine is the best option for this particular sewing operation?" For a crafter, the question usually is "How can I adjust this one versatile machine I have to do this particular sewing operation well?"

I have a strong feeling that a compound feed sewing machine is perfectly capable of producing non-puckered seams on waxed canvas, given the right thread, presser feet, and adjustments. I also strongly suspect that thread tension top+bottom plays a big role in puckering or lack thereof, contrary to statements made earlier in the thread.

Waxed canvas has been on my to-try list for a while. I just got a sample book of waxed canvas from Carr Textile  and I'm going to order a few yards to experiment with.

 

Not so much the thread tension as thread choice. I also failed to mention the marks that a walking foot machine leave on the top ply of fabric. We do get some feed dog tracking on the bottom, but with smooth presser feet on a needle feed we get little to none on the top. These garments end up hanging in stores a short time after we finish them and sell for $$$.

It would be interesting to see those seams that are puckered with a thread more suitable to the fabric. I'd be happy to send you some tin cloth to play with, just send me a pm with your address. Be prepared to clean wax out of all the nooks and crannies of your machine, I would take fuzz any day! 

Regards, Eric 

 

[mikesc]

Researching ( after reading this thread here ) "waxed cotton"..( actually I was researching "coton ciré", which in French usually means cotton impregnated with linseed oil rather than wax ) I came across this, which mentions puckering, and possible reasons / solutions for it.
http://www.ventile.co.uk/specification.htmlx

it was linked to from a French forum thread http://forum.davidmanise.com/index.php?topic=42391.0
that was discussing waterproofing and wicking properties of various textiles "natural" and "man made", ( including recycling old military tents amongst other things, for outdoor wear..

Edited May 22, 2016 by mikesc

[gottaknow]

1 minute ago, mikesc said:

Researching ( after reading this thread here ) "waxed cotton"..( actually I was researching "coton ciré", which in French usually means cotton impregnated with linseed oil rather than wax ) I came across this
http://www.ventile.co.uk/specification.htmlx

it was linked to from a French forum thread http://forum.davidmanise.com/index.php?topic=42391.0
that was discussing waterproofing and wicking properties of various textiles "natural" and "man made", ( including recycling old military tents amongst other things, for outdoor wear..

Ours is paraffin wax and oil.  We provide a can of it for renewing the fabric and seam sealing. Truly an amazing fabric. Once the jacket is broke in, they are super supple and comfortable. Combined with a flannel liner they are surprisingly warm and waterproof. 

Regards, Eric 

[mikesc]

Quote

Ours is paraffin wax and oil

Presumably an oil with a siccative ( drying action ) . That still keeps the soft touch of the textile.

re warmth and waterproofing..Yes..:) I remember reading that contrary to popular opinion, the choices of textiles and methods of treatment and construction of garments and textiles and objects that would be considered "traditional" and "low tech" actually work better than many synthetics in a lot of applications..I know that in military clothing and hunter's clothing, the natural fibres ( with treatments such as wax and oil etc ) are warmer, more supple and importantly silent or at least very quiet, than their hundred percent waterproof synthetic competitors..and the natural fibres are so much more comfortable to wear..

 

A lot of "natural textiles" and "leathers" are  ( IMO ) just as "hi-tech" ( if not even more hi-tech, when one thinks about what goes into their production, the knowledge and the techniques used to make them and then construct the garments or items ) than the "modern" synthetics that most people would think of as being "hi-tech"..We stand ( and sew ) upon the shoulders of some very intelligent and creative people..

[gottaknow]

49 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Presumably an oil with a siccative ( drying action ) . That still keeps the soft touch of the textile.

re warmth and waterproofing..Yes..:) I remember reading that contrary to popular opinion, the choices of textiles and methods of treatment and construction of garments and textiles and objects that would be considered "traditional" and "low tech" actually work better than many synthetics in a lot of applications..I know that in military clothing and hunter's clothing, the natural fibres ( with treatments such as wax and oil etc ) are warmer, more supple and importantly silent or at least very quiet, than their hundred percent waterproof synthetic competitors..and the natural fibres are so much more comfortable to wear..

 

A lot of "natural textiles" and "leathers" are  ( IMO ) just as "hi-tech" ( if not even more hi-tech, when one thinks about what goes into their production, the knowledge and the techniques used to make them and then construct the garments or items ) than the "modern" synthetics that most people would think of as being "hi-tech"..We stand ( and sew ) upon the shoulders of some very intelligent and creative people..

That is very true. Our company has been around since the late 1800's. The waxed canvas we use isn't far from the original. It was designed for miners and loggers working in the rainy northwest. Gore Tex is nice for a lot of active sportswear applications, but if you get it muddy, it will leak like a sieve. It offers little abrasion resistance as well. With waxed canvas, you can hose it off, scrub it with a brush and re-wax it. We use high quality Wickett and Craig veg tanned bridal leather for our luggage, combining it with waxed canvas or heavy cotton twill. Our duffle bags are amazing. Our loyal customers want time tested products that don't fail under heavy use and stress.  As you said, many of our techniques are over a hundred years old simply because there's nothing better. 

Regards, Eric 

[georgeandgracie]

Eric, your comments about thread piqued my interest. I am not using cotton-wrapped polyester.  My thread is all-polyester and bonded; it comes from The Thread Exchange because I can buy small quantities there, and that is the only choice they seem to offer.

Because I am not making garments, I would deduce that the all-polyester is not a wear problem, but do you suppose it could be exacerbating the puckering problem? If so, what thread should I try to find to replace it?

I have not yet found a Singer 211G157 for sale. Ralph's Power Sewing in Denver has some sort of 212 - a double needle machine. Can a double needle machine be operated with just one needle?

Edited May 23, 2016 by georgeandgracie

[gottaknow]

Bonded poly is better than nylon for puckering.

I don't think I caught what you were making with the waxed canvas. That will make a difference in the size and type of thread you're using. You can use a double needle by removing one needle, usually the left one. The 212 is the two needle version of the 211. I'd hold out for a reverse if you can. I'm going to sew up some samples and photograph them for you here so you can see for yourself.

Regards, Eric

[georgeandgracie]

I am making tool rolls for woodworkers, shop aprons, and ditty bags. with 8.25 and 10.25 ounce waxed canvas. Occasionally I will make something with heavier canvas. Etsy shop: camprobber.etsy.com.

Guess I'd better get back with Ralph's and ask about that 212.

You don't want to sell one of your Singer 211G157 machines, do you, Eric? (I bet I know the answer!!)

[gottaknow]

I'll check out your store when I get to my home computer! I really wouldn't use a double needle unless you want to use it for that purpose. My 211's are the backups for my Juki 9010A's. I do have a lot of 211W151's that don't have a reverse, and those are everywhere around the country. I'd still hold out for a single needle with reverse. I'll look at your products and see if I can come with other ideas for you.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

Great looking etsy shop! Looking at your product lineup, I think holding out for a needle feed with reverse would serve you well. Again, great looking stuff!

Regards, Eric 

[georgeandgracie]

Aww, thank you so much, Eric! (Can I come work for Filson now? )
 

Other than Ralph's Power Sewing in Denver, are there some likely sources for the Singer 211G157?

 

 

[shoepatcher]

There are other places in the US you can try.  Out west, try Alberoni's in LA, Bogle-Greenwell in Texas,   Miami Sewing in Florida.  These are all big sewing machine dealers.   Since you are probably going to only be getting head only, shipping would not be a huge expense.    The key is finding one and in good shape.

glenn

[georgeandgracie]

Thank you, Glenn! These people will never hear the end of it until I find my machine.

[Uwe]

Advanced Sewing Technologies Corp. is one of the big boys in used sewing machines supplies. They publish a monthly inventory spreadsheet, which currently shows one Singer 211A157AA, plus several other needle feed machines with reverse that may be suitable candidates. You can contact them for a quote of a specific model you're interested in and they send you a price and a picture of the machine.

[georgeandgracie]

Uwe, thank you! That spreadsheet lists a 211A157AA. What does the A stand for, as opposed to the G?

Miami Sewing has a 211G165. How does that compare to the 211G157?

Edited May 24, 2016 by georgeandgracie

[Uwe]

The middle Letter (G,A,W, etc.)  usually indicates in which factory the machine was produced : http://www.sewalot.com/dating_singer_sewing_machine_by_serial_number.htm

Some Singer manuals will give a brief description of the various subclasses. 

[Hockeymender]

4 hours ago, Uwe said:

Advanced Sewing Technologies Corp. is one of the big boys in used sewing machines supplies. They publish a monthly inventory spreadsheet, which currently shows one Singer 211A157AA, plus several other needle feed machines with reverse that may be suitable candidates. You can contact them for a quote of a specific model you're interested in and they send you a price and a picture of the machine.

I would, if at all possible, go sew on anything you are considering buying from Advanced Sewing Technologies. That's from personal experience. PM me if you want details. 

[coryleif]

Here're some more tips on puckering from the folks at Sailrite (mostly reinforcing what's been said above): https://sailrite.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/how-to-keep-fabric-from-shrinking-when-you-sew/

I second the Ventile spec info. Came across that years ago and it's been helpful.

Eric, if you don't mind sharing, what kind of cotton-wrapped poly thread are you guys using? I've been looking at A&E's D-Core for denim totes, and wondering if there's anything better.

Re used machines: it's always best to try out used machines, if possible ... unless you're buying it from Uwe. Also, check out the LW.net sponsors -- many deal in used machines. See also Keystone Sewing and Nick-O Sew.

Good luck, happy sewing!

c

[gottaknow]

1 hour ago, coryleif said:

Here're some more tips on puckering from the folks at Sailrite (mostly reinforcing what's been said above): https://sailrite.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/how-to-keep-fabric-from-shrinking-when-you-sew/

I second the Ventile spec info. Came across that years ago and it's been helpful.

Eric, if you don't mind sharing, what kind of cotton-wrapped poly thread are you guys using? I've been looking at A&E's D-Core for denim totes, and wondering if there's anything better.

Re used machines: it's always best to try out used machines, if possible ... unless you're buying it from Uwe. Also, check out the LW.net sponsors -- many deal in used machines. See also Keystone Sewing and Nick-O Sew.

Good luck, happy sewing!

c

Our thread is custom made by one of the worlds leaders. (I can't say) Two years ago I did extensive testing for them which resulted in a new finish formulation to solve some undesirable attributes. 

That said, I've worked with A&E thread a lot and it's a very good thread. D-core is good for anything cotton. If you want something stronger, try the Perma core which is poly wrapped poly. I've used their thread on everything from denim to Lycra.  

Regards, Eric 

[gottaknow]

The 211A series were made in Japan. There were a few Singers of that era that were designated A as well, but were made in Germany, likely under contract from Adler.

Regards, Eric

[georgeandgracie]

Alberoni has a Singer 211G157, head only, for $1275. Is that really what they go for?