Let's Talk About Steel

[rawcustom]

If anyone would like to quote me where I stated stainless is better than or where high carbon is better than, please do so. Otherwise I ask people don't try to argue that as I know like Art that argument has no end.

Also steel is iron+carbon. 

Alloy steel is iron+carbon+other elements 

Edited June 3, 2016 by rawcustom
Addition

[bikermutt07]

(Shouts from behind the curtain)

What about laminated steels like fallkniven use? Or Damascus? How do they stack up?

(Continues to gobble popcorn) 

[rawcustom]

Ha! That's number 2 on my list and seeing how thus one is going I doubt I'll kick that hornet nest! 

[Martyn]

33 minutes ago, Art said:

I've seen this happen on more than a few knife lists over the years...

 

Me too. Were you ever on rec.knives Art? Usenet was a wonderful thing, back in the day before all the kids swamped it. I think the first 'world wide web' forum I joined was 'the custom knife directory'. I liked that one. I think it morphed into the knife network eventually. 

[TonyRV2]

There are only two types of steel that matter.  The steel that you like, and the steel that your customer likes.  Of course the marketing hype would have you think otherwise.

[MADMAX22]

On 7/27/2016 at 7:00 AM, TonyRV2 said:

There are only two types of steel that matter.  The steel that you like, and the steel that your customer likes.  Of course the marketing hype would have you think otherwise.

Haha yeah although I would say the one that you can HT properly and repeatedly is the most important then the one that you can convince your customer that it will do the job of cutting down trees and butchering 10 moose without being sharpened and still look like new after doing it. 

[rawcustom]

Well after much consideration I’ve decided to reply. But first to redress some of the initial comments and clarify a couple of points.

Knife Grade steel, as pointed out by Art is not a universally defined term, so has no general accepted criteria or meaning. This is a term I use (my opinion) to define a steel suitable for knife making, typically being content of ~0.7% carbon or more along with usually 2 or more alloy components. There are exceptions, cobalt steel being one of them, but jumping to flint knapped obsidian is beyond a stretch, after all the term uses steel not glass, but thanks for playing.

Alloyed steel versus simple steel. A simple steel is carbon + iron, although that’s nearly impossible to find as even the most basic steels incorporate a few extra alloys for added benefits. Alloyed steel or what I refer to as high-alloyed steel is yet another subjective term that I use. To me I define a high-alloyed knife steel as ~0.7% carbon or greater along with ~4 or more alloy elements, or any high percent 1-3 alloys, and I would define this roughly around 5%+.

Maybe that is a bit confusing but a couple takeaways. I use and define these terms to talk about steel in knifemaking since the common terms, stainless vs. high-carbon, are meaningless (see first post). Second, an alloyed steel or what I would refer to as a high-alloyed steel does not mean stainless. It can be stainless, but there are many, many that are not.

Now the real sticking part with folks is that I can say that the performance aspect of a knife (or really steel in general) can be improved with alloys. What I didn’t say is that these changes are preferred or desired as that is a matter of personal preference. You can argue that a pocket knife should be stainless, or that chisels of SV-35 would be too hard to sharpen (personal opinions on use, not relevant to the discussion), but what you can’t argue is that a simple steel such as 1080 can hold an edge as long SV-35, or that 1080 can take the toughness abuse of 5160 or 52100 or that 1095 will retain a red temper as well as M2. But remember, just because you can increase a steels attributes in what I consider the aspects important to a knife (edge retention, toughness, durability) does not make the knife “better” for a given user or task, again personal preference. Increasing any one of the attributes often comes as a trade-off, such as better edge retention will be harder to sharpen. Just as importantly the steel alone will not dictate the user’s satisfaction of the knife. Steel and heat treatment (hardness), grind geometry, and fit and functionality for the desired task, are all vital to overall satisfaction of use. So just because a steel can be produced to have an increase in a given attribute does not mean an increase in desirability by the user since preferences vary widely and wildly and they always do.

Again I will state this thread has nothing to do with “what steel is best” because that is really nothing more than “what steel do I like best”. If you read my original post I am attempting to give the average consumer some information about steel used in knifemaking that goes beyond the simplistic, inaccurate notion of a 2 categorical system of “stainless” vs “high-carbon”. It also has nothing to do with the benefits of a custom knife being “custom”, or being able to have someone make your drawing into a knife (personal opinions about custom knives, not relevant to the discussion). Lastly it involves marketing only in the sense that hopefully those of you that read this will have a better idea to see through the BS, and look for what matters to you.

Now if you want to argue for your favorite steel, by all means start a thread and get to it. That is a pointless debate and not one I will engage in. I do regret playing along to start with, but that simply isn’t what this thread is about. If you want to add some helpful information (maybe someone else can try to explain “surgical stainless”) or would like to clarify some common misleading information to help demystify choosing steels or good resources on the matter, than please join in.

So what was this post all about? This is a forum for leatherworkers, many of which are getting started or looking to improve their game. There is a wealth of knowledge being shared on every type of leather, treatment of leather and working of leather including the knives to cut leather. For those who are looking to buy or build a knife for cutting leather, there simply isn’t much information out there aside from a few known brand names or makers. Lots of assumptions and lots of the “high-carbon” cries. As I’ve tried to point out, there is much more to a steel than what most assume. Those who read this in their search will hopefully use this information to end up making a better choice as to what would be more suitable for their needs, or at least learn enough to talk to a maker, or determine what steel they have before trying to make it into a knife. You should consider what attributes are important to you, or what you are trying to accomplish and start there. Maybe to some having a knife that you can hammer through a 2x4 makes a lot of sense. Personally I would rather use an axe or a saw, but if that’s your bag you should be looking into spring steels and differential tempered steels, all things that will require you look deeper than “high-carbon”, or even more meaningless “carbon”.

So don’t buy a knife because it’s “high-carbon” or because it’s “stainless” (unless you buy cars because they are “wheeled” or “motorized”). You put time into finding the right leather, the right dye, the right conditioner, so don’t expect steel to be any different.

[OnePivot]

Im no knifemaker, or even an expert by any means... but Im closing in on my mechanical engineering degree, and Ive spent a lot of time in the metal lab hardening, stretching/stress testing a bunch of different alloys. We'd do it under pretty controlled conditions with lab grade equipment. 

Basically, good steel is junk if its not treated properly. I cant think of a great way to really test a piece of steel without the lab and pretty destructive testing. Gotta know what to look for, and trust your source. Different alloys respond very differently, but thats more up to the guy making and treating the steels to do properly. In short, I think the alloy of the steel itself isnt that important. 1080 can be great steel, or it can be brittle and pretty useless. 

 

In my opinion, what makes a great knife would be a bit on the poor side for a leather working tool. I dont mind a quick strop while working. I dont expect to keep an edge for even 30 minutes, but I do want that edge back in a few swipes on my strop! A knife that goes dull after a few cuts would be pretty useless, but that might be a quality of an excellent leather tool. I dont want to pause from my leather projects to really buff the living hell out of a super hard steel tool. 

[rawcustom]

On 6/2/2016 at 11:36 AM, rawcustom said:

So a steel with all the right ingredients means little if it were processed crudely and/or heat treated incorrectly. Conversely a steel with substandard ingredients mixed exacting and heat treated correctly will outperform a steel that had better ingredients (potential) but failed on realization.

Well you seemed to arrive at the same point I laid out in the opening post, however your assumption that the alloy is of no importance would be just as wrong as saying the heat treatment is of no importance. 

[JLSleather]

As a former too-and-die guy, I've used all manner of 'stuff'.  When I made jigs to feed wallboard (the 'conveyor' type thing used at the gypsum plant) they wanted to pay for 1020 cold rolled.  Fair enough.  When  press broke a punch and we needed to get it running quickly, a scrap of O-1 and a lathe take care of that, with the understanding that was a temp fix.  And in the end, I use D-2 for everything if I had to pick (A-2 not far behind).

These steels not only don't corrode by lunch time like the cold rolled or the oil-hard, but they have a wear resistance that is to be preferred.  

Now, I'm not a  knife maker, and tomorrow I'll be NOT making knives again.  Just a guy who is really tired of YEARS of sharpening stuff, and elects to go with what I dont' need to polish daily.