Back stitching Biothane Beta w/Cowboy 4500

[Parott1]

Purchased a CB 4500 with a slotted plate to make biothane beta dog leashes.  I'm using 138 bonded nylon thread with size 24 organ needles. 

I have no problem sewing with the machine IE going around corners etc, my only dilemma is back stitching.  It seems almost next to impossible to get the needle to feed back in the same holes.  I tried lifting the presser foot to align the needle, but then I get loose thread/loops on the bottom side.  Sometimes they align, but most of the time they are just slightly off.  Every now and then when back stitching, the thread on one or two stitches looks to be slightly frayed and I'm worried that this will weaken the product instead of adding strength. 

 

I included a few pics of the test pieces I made

[Wizcrafts]

Biothane is not leather! Did you send a piece of Biothane to the dealer so he could setup the feed to match in both directions? This would have eliminated the problem before it came up in your shop.

Assuming you didn't and the dealer wasn't aware of Biothane's stickiness and density, you need to make an adjustment to change the reverse stitch length, to get it to match forward stitching. Here are some simple things you can try without any dealer interaction.

1. Set the inside foot to meet the top of the slotted plate just after the needle.
2. Set the inside foot to meet the top of the Biothane with the tip of the needle
3. Loosen the bolts on the stitch length/direction nacelle. remove the top bolt. Pull outward on the very top, insert a washer, push the top bolt into it, and screw the bolts back into the body. This will change the stitch length in reverse. It often compensates for mismatched stitch lengths on these machines.
4. Loosen the pressure on the feet. Don't back off to the point where the 'thane lifts with the needle though, or you'll get skipped stitches.
5. Try a diamond/triangle point needle.

If none of the above correct the stitch length problem, call the dealer for instructions on adjusting the internal parts that control the directional stitch lengths (not simple or trivial). The dealer should walk you through the procedure. Don't attempt this on your own!

[MADMAX22]

Good luck with using the slotted plate and back stitching. Even with leather and making as many adjustments as I have scene it still wouldnt work worth anything. Using the feed dog and normal plate with a silly washer installed on the ramp and still pushing up on the lever then pulling it back down about half an inch I can get them to line up correctly with leather. Ofcourse it could just be my machine or one of the many who have started threads on the subject. Pretty sure even Wiz said it doesnt work properly with the slotted plate. 

reverse stitching is not one of these machines strong suits. 

[Wizcrafts]

I had better success sewing Biothane with the feed dog and standard plate.

[Wizcrafts]

Personally, if I'm having a problem matching stitches in reverse, I spin the work 360 degrees and stitch through a few stitches in the forward direction. That way the holes always line up. I use the same system on some of my old machines that don't have any reverse.

[MADMAX22]

Agreed, I either flip it or saddle stitch back by hand. Depends on what I am making and how nice I want it to look. The saddle stitch back stitch looks nicer and  I can pull both threads to the back, but it takes way more time then just flipping my work around. 

I went back to using the standard plate. Seems to work the best out of all of them as long as it meets the sewing needs.

[Parott1]

I didn't send a sample of the biothane to Bob before I purchased the machine.   The feed dog that came with the machine wouldn't let me sew as close to the edge as I wanted, so I had to purchase the slotted plate, 

Wiz, when you say, you spin the work 360 degrees and stitch through a few stitches in the forward direction.  Do you mean you spin the work around and sew 2-3 stitches forward and then spin it 180 degrees and sew in the direction you normally would?

[Parott1]

I followed all the steps above with the exception of #4.  I think the needles I have are triangle point.  The washer seems to have shortened the back stitch.  It looks half decent from the top, but the thread on the bottom side is slightly frayed.  I just bout a pack of 1/4' washers from lowes.  Here are a couple current pics.  The first one is the top and the second is the bottom side

[Wizcrafts]

12 hours ago, Parott1 said:

I didn't send a sample of the biothane to Bob before I purchased the machine.   The feed dog that came with the machine wouldn't let me sew as close to the edge as I wanted, so I had to purchase the slotted plate, 

Wiz, when you say, you spin the work 360 degrees and stitch through a few stitches in the forward direction.  Do you mean you spin the work around and sew 2-3 stitches forward and then spin it 180 degrees and sew in the direction you normally would?

That is correct. I sew backwards a few stitches, spin the work 180, drop the edge guide if needed, then sew to the end, where I reverse and sew back again to lock the stitches. Sometimes I opt to just lift the feet and pull the material towards me, two or  three stitch lengths, drop the feet and resew through those stitches. On other jobs, if the back side won't be seen, I may just hold the threads and start sewing to the end. Then I pull the top thread through the back side with a seam ripper and tie the starting threads together in a knot. Ditto for the ending stitch. This is especially useful of large projects, like bomber jackets, where spinning the work isn't trivial (I sew in zippers and patches all the time).

[JLSleather]

On 7/3/2016 at 4:23 PM, Wizcrafts said:

 

Loosen the bolts on the stitch length/direction nacelle. remove the top bolt. Pull outward on the very top, insert a washer, push the top bolt into it, and screw the bolts back into the body. This will change the stitch length in reverse. It often compensates for mismatched stitch lengths on these machines.

If none of the above correct the stitch length problem, call the dealer for instructions on adjusting the internal parts that control the directional stitch lengths (not simple or trivial). The dealer should walk you through the procedure. Don't attempt this on your own!

When you see someone familiar with sewing machines as Wiz clearly is making statements like "often compensates for mismatched stitch lengths", then you can REASONABLY assume the this is fairly common (which,it is).

So, I "get" it.  This is an adjustment which has no 'fine tuning' set screw.  And to further complicate things, you're trying to make a LINEAR change in stitch length with a ROTARY control.  While that can be done, it's not 'zip, zip, done' (probably).

Has there ever been one delivered that showed up stitching back in the exact holes? Probably.  Throw enough poop at the wall, as they say....

But it does "grate" me a bit that they are ADVERTISED "stitches back in the same holes", if they DONT.  What they mean, apparently, is that is "could be" made to do that.  So that's probably what they should say.  $2500 isn't life-altering money, but it's not pocket change either (at least, not to me).  For $2500, it should show up ALREADY doing what it's claimed to do. If not, it's like buying a new car, which runs GREAT once you tune it up....

 

 

 

[CowboyBob]

The problem is the feed dogs are out & he's sewing Beta which is real sticky,it is real hard to get the stitches to line up in reverse in leather w/o the feed dog,but beta is impossible w/o the feed dogs.they lift the material off the slide plate & help with the feed.So use Wiz's idea & turn it around if you need to backstitch w/o the feed dogs.We always test the machines with the feed dogs in.Now if there was a Teflon slotted needle plate made it would help the reverse stitch line up.

[JLSleather]

But, the material is not "stickier" in reverse than it is in forward.  It's the same material.

 

[Darren Brosowski]

The material is a bastard to sew regardless of the machine. In theory a compound feed machine when well set up should be perfect in both directions but it does not a;ways work in reality/

[CowboyBob]

You Sir are correct but even leather shortens up in reverse w/o the feed dogs so if leather doesn't reverse properly,"stickier" beta sure won't.What is strange about ALL 441's even Juki is the top of the needlebar rock frame is offset.It's offset towards the back so it makes the feed harder to be more consistant in reverse.A machine like a Juki 563 the pivot @ the top is centered & should feed more evenly in reverse w/o a feed dog.

[JLSleather]

Yeah, I can see where it's not a quick n painless setting, and I think the shims behind teh plate is certainly more controllable. 

i don't know a whole lot about these machines, though I catch on pretty quick.  So I guess I'm thinking of the "new guy" when I say all this..... just cuz I don't want them to spend a couple grand and then think they're doing it wrong when they aren't, or think they "broke" something when they didn't.

As a former tool and die man, I've installed a couple [million] shims...

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

16 hours ago, Darren Brosowski said:

The material is a bastard to sew regardless of the machine. In theory a compound feed machine when well set up should be perfect in both directions but it does not a;ways work in reality/

What he said! I sew quite a bit of both Biothane and Beta, in fact, it is the main reason I bought my Cowboy 4500.  I have pleny of machines to sew leather, but I needed to be able to sew Biothane FAST and a Landis One is not fast.  I'd much rather sew leather than this material.  I despise the stuff, but it's what a lot of people want now instead of leather harness.  For sewing Biothane, I use a needle 2 sizes larger than I would for leather, and on Beta, one size larger than for leather.  I would never attempt to sew either without a feed dog. I have rarely, if ever had a problem with my reverse stitches not lining up with my forward ones. If it happens, it's typically due to going up or downhill and the material not feeding properly due to the nature of the material, not the fault of the machine. This material is sticky, yet at the same time, slides out of position easily.  I use either LR needles or S-point needles and set the stitch length longer. Tri point needles leave too ugly of a hole for me. If at all possible, I avoid having to sew Biothane or Beta at all!

[Colt W Knight]

I made 30 GPS tracking collars out of biothane, and it was a nightmare to work with when the weather turned cold. I was having to preheat it before punching holes, bending, sewing, or really doiing anything with it. someone asked me for more, and I declined. 

[Parott1]

The reason I bought the slotted plate was because the biothane didn't sew right with it.  I'm sewing the leashes aprox 1/8" from the edge.  Anytime I did this the biothane would pull down into the gap and the bottom stitch wasn't lined with the top stitch. 

 

Is there a way to use the feed dog with beta and still get within an 1/8" from the edge?  

 

Also this may be a dumb question, but is it possible to use the swing out edge guide simultaneously with the drop down guide?  I tried to flip the work around, sew 3 stitches and do a 180 and go back around the piece, but I had a hard time getting the stitches to go exactly in the first 3 holes.  

 

When I say simultaneously, I mean set one guide to keep the stitching equal distance from the edge, then use the other guide once the work is flipped around.   

[Parott1]

After playing around with washers and pieces of business cards, I think I got as close as I'm going to get without having Teflon coated plate. 

[mikesc]

Possibly a dumb question ;) But..Why would anyone want something made from this stuff anyway ?
From what I can find out about it ( had never heard of it before, and I don't think I've ever seen any ), it appears to be a sort of polyurethane webbing with a plastic leather "look" coating..sort of a leather look without the leather ( similar to what the Chinese describe as "genuine PVC leather" when they are selling "leather goods" or "leather clothing" ) , if the coating is to protect the webbing, surely the act of stitching it, and so piercing the coating pretty much nullifies the protective element of the "sandwich"..does it have any advantages ? ( obviously one of the disadvantages is apparently it is "bastard to sew" ) ..Or is it just a kind of ersatz leather for vegans..Is it cheaper ?..

Not knocking anyone sewing it, customers want some weird things..But why would they want it ?

Ps..the name Biothane made me think initially that it was one of the plastics made from seaweed ( some of that kind of thing is made near to where I live ) but it appears to be a US manufacturer, their website is not very forthcoming about any "advantages" that it might have..

Edited July 12, 2016 by mikesc

[Colt W Knight]

That stuff is tough as nails, weather resistant, and easy to clean. Much less maintenance than leather. 

[Singermania]

HI all, I agree, there is no point trying to sew this stuff without a feed dog.  If you want to get closer to the edge then use a dogleg left or right foot, however the stitches in your foto don't look all that close to the edge to me.  Don't even think about disassembling machines and adding washers etc, this is poor advise and can seriously invalidate your warranty.   Giving this kind of technical advise to the layman is bit risky in my view, leave that to the professionals.........have tried to attach a video of the dogleg foot in action, not the best sewing technique but hopefully will illustrate the point..

 

 

Posted by Cowboy Leather Machines on Monday, February 8, 2016

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Edited July 13, 2016 by Singermania

[Parott1]

The stitch is aprox 1/8" from the edge.  That's a 5/8" piece in the picture.  I didn't add washers to moving parts.  I just loosened the plate to adjust the stitch length and slid a shim under to shorten up the forward stitch. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Parott1

[Wizcrafts]

Have you thought about spraying the throat plate with silicon, or using some drops of Tri~Flow?

[Parott1]

I posted a pic above and think I got the backstitch pretty close.  I added a shim to the bottom of the stitch nacelle and it seems to have corrected the problem 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Parott1