Stohlman holsters

[JLSleather]

Okay, still trying to clean up a bit as I go... meaning without actually shutting down to clean.  Making progress, getting stuff back where it should go.  Here's the thing, though...

HOW MANY times have we seen Stohlman's 'How to Make Holsters' book quoted, clipped, recommended, borrowed, sold ... and that's just on THIS forum.  I've had a copy (at least one) of that book for years.

But I rarely see it.. over in that pile of other patterns and carvings and such.  So I went through it, be sure there aren't tracings or other patterns between the pages (hey, I want EVERYTHING where it's supposed to be).  And there it is.. in the intro... Al wanting to give "a special thanks to my wife, Terry ...."

Wait.. what????  I thought Mrs. Stohlman was ANN.  Maybe her name is Terry Ann, and she goes by Ann?  Is it marketing (Al n Ann)?  Was he married more than once?  Is there a reason I never noticed that (normally pretty thorough)?  Is it even my business?

But more to the point ... gotta 'skirt' the issue a bit, because I'm thinking there are copyright issues involved:  

So, if I SELL patterns -- how much do I need to  ALTER a previously available one before it's not considered "copy-ing"?  I mean, if you do a rose, and I do a rose, and they're similar -- it may appear to be a copy when in fact one person may not have seen the other.  For this reason, I don't sell carving designs.  If I make one, it's for me or someone I know.

But we see carving designs offered for sale all the time.  Always somebody wanting to sell us something --  whether we need it or not!  And flipping through the pages of that vintage book, THERE is that carving design I've seen again and again (without even looking for it).  I kept seeing slight variations of the SAME pattern, and in time I started thinking I KNOW I've seen that before.  Then I'd go back to not really having an  opinion, since I don't sell them and I don't buy them.

THE  QUESTION THEN:  Is it legal to use the design to make holsters?  Of course .. that was the point of the book.  But we all agree that it would NOT be legal to reproduce the PATTERN and sell it. Since the designs exceed 50 years old, some will tout "vintage" and "public domain" -- but that book is still in production.  So if I scan it, and use software to "smoosh" it a bit this way and that... is this a copyright issue?  Can I "smoosh" it, and then claim copyright protection for my 'smooshed" pattern, even though created by someone else?

Not gonna post the thing -- for the reasons I just gave -- but somebody look at page 18 of that book and tell me you don't see that design in a dozen slight "variations". 

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by JLSleather

[Colt W Knight]

Trademarks have to be enforced to hold any weight in court, and people recreating and selling those Stohlman designs for the last 50 years pretty much would kill any trademarked stuff they had.

Copyrights are good for 95 years if made before 1978, and I don't know anything about copyright enforcement.

One of the reasons I don't like floral designs that much is that most folk's stuff is pretty stale, and all looks the same or they traced it out of one of those old Stohlman books. Guys like Bob Park's tooling is so impressive, I don't mind the floral designs.

[JLSleather]

Well, your claim to intellectual property can be renewed - so that's no trouble.  And I don't have issue with those old patterns... I STILL get asked to do them on occasion, and "back when" I did a LOT of them, just because it makes it very easy to compare my tooling to the next guy (who also did those).

Only issue is, I don't then move a couple lines on the pattern and then SELL the "new" pattern.

No surprises here, really -- this went about like I expected it to

 

[longun45]

If you make an Item, you are following a basic pattern.  

Function determines the form and the forms can vary wildly. ( skuls anyone?)

The patterns were written to be copied, hence the book ( you paid for the pattern with the book.)  Otherwise why write the book?  It is a starting point and then you work from there.  The basic pattern is an Idea that is shared through the book.  The author received his royalty fromthe book

You cannot copy the book EXACTLY, but you can give your own style to it and while Stohlmans work is a big influence, I doubt he can claim credit for your work.  

[JLSleather]

We're not talking about the same thing.  Yes, you paid for the book. And you can use the pattern to make the holsters, and sell the holsters.  I have made -- and still get asked to make -- the one on page 22.  But I can't sell you the pattern on page 22, since it's copyrighted.  Nothing expired - I see it was renewed (the digital version says copyright 2010 Tandy Leather Factory).

I can sell you the holster.  I can even sell you my copy of the book (or 10, if I happen to have them).  But I can't legally reproduce the image and sell it.  Lawsuits have happened over just that, and the "damages" sued for are far more than the dollar value of your sales.

 

[bikermutt07]

You should probably just make your own pdf versions of the pattern and then sell them for free on your website. I saw a guy recently doing that with holster patterns and wallets and such.(wink)

[JLSleather]

Actually, I think 'selling' them for $0 can still get you sued... for loss of [their] income, damage to [their] reputation, etc.  Not uncommon to see damages awarded 6- and 7-figures.  No thank, I'll pass

Incidentally, I was notified that someone contacted a 'clicker die' maker recently and had most of those patterns on my site made into dies.  So, maybe see a lot more of those here shortly ...

Difference is, I OFFERED them with the INTENT that people would use them and share them and email them and fakebook 'em.... 

 

[bikermutt07]

I didn't think about that. 

On the subject of someone using your patterns to have dies made.....that's pretty crappy on their part.

But your good intentions will always reward you. Their bad intentions will most likely reward them differently.

 

[JLSleather]

I didn't take it as "bad"... that's what they're there for.. so people can USE em

 

[Colt W Knight]

Yeah, you can't reproduce their property without their permission.