Holster / sheath makers Careful with Seiwa Chisels

[Boriqua]

I have had my Seiwa Chisels for 2 months and while using it last week the 2 prong had a prong break off. Of course I already sold off my Tandy chisels so I am in a tiny bit of a bind right now but ... not a huge deal. When I look at the crack it appears that the tool is made from Cast material instead of from solid stock but I am not a metallurgist  just a dude who has spent most of his adult life using tools. I wrote to Goods Japan admittedly disappointed that the tool only lasted 2 months and I got the below as a reply

" Hello Alex,

Thanks for your email and the pictures. I am very sorry that you experienced this inconvenience. Please be assured that all of our tools are of excellent quality and workmanship. The steel on these pricking irons is highly tempered and extremely hard. Unlike cheaper pricking irons these ones are designed to break rather than bend, this prevents undetected malformed prongs from destroying leatherwork through uneven stitch holes as well as ensuring the hardest possible prongs, as mentioned on the listing.

Breakage usually occurs when being used on leather that is too thick, when the pricking iron is rocked free, or exposed to sudden impact or shearing force that would otherwise bend the prongs. The pictures you sent indicate an outcome based on this kind of usage.

Therefore we ask you to use your tools gently and as mentioned on the description of the listing:

"Please note always use a soft headed hammer (never metal) and tap it into your leather work gently, when removing, always pull it out of your leatherwork straight, never shift it side to side to loosen it or this could snap the prongs. Avoid using leather that is so thick it makes removal difficult. If you work with leather that is thick enough to make removal difficult then a wider pricking iron is recommended."

However, if you believe this to be a problem with the material of the product, please feel free to contact the manufacturer on warrant issues.

Again, I'm sorry for your inconvenience and thank you for understanding.

Cheers

Alyssa "

I always used the chisels on top of a scrap piece of 9/10 oz leather so the chisels never struck a hard surface but I did use them to go through 2 pieces of 8/9 oz in the production of sheaths and holsters and yes there is a bit of pull and wiggle to get them out of the leather even if the tool is waxed but I dont think I was too harsh because I of course would not want to ruin my project my creating big nasty holes from wrenching the tool out. If you have seen my stitching I am pretty fussy about it.  I really liked the holes the Seiwa Chisels made especially when compared to the tandy.

I am not trying to rip seiwa or goods Japan just giving some guys who work heavier leather a heads up. What I started doing is just punching my holes through the front piece, gluing and then going through with an awl in hand when I go to sew it all together so I am only using the chisel through one piece of 8/9 oz. Evidently two layers is too much.

I ordered a set of those REALLY cheap Chinese chisel sets off of ebay and I will let you know what I think when I use them some. According to something I read they are the same chisels tandy is selling as their proline. I only use chisels when I have to sew right up against tooling because I cant make out wheel marks there. Everything else is marked with pricking wheels and sewn with an awl.

anyway here is a pic. I posted it super sized so you can see the grain of the steel.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Boriqua

[bikermutt07]

Sorry for your loss. I have a cheap set of chiseled from Amazon in 4mm. They seem to be fine. I have the Tandy craft tool pro chiseled as well, but they are so small I don't use them.

[OLDNSLOW]

from the side it looks as though it is cast like you mentioned and not billet or machined from a solid mass of steal.  Not sure how much they charge for those, the set I bought through either flea bay or Amazonian have worked well an I treated them purddy rough. I think that in spite of the name they are made in China and not Japon just my own thought.

[Boriqua]

I didnt even think to look at Amazon .. damn! I paid a little less for them direct from china but I could have gotten them alot faster from amazon. I paid about 20 bucks each for the Siewa Chisels ... I just got a whole set of 4 from china made from bar stock for under $10. I hope it works out but I could buy 4 sets before I pay what I did for the 2 chisels I bought from goods japan.

I no longer go out to work and make handfuls of money so losing $20 bucks kinda hurts but live and learn. Just have to make a few more leather projects!!

[TonyRV2]

You can't really tell much about the steel itself without extreme magnification.  When something like this breaks, its not the grain that you see.  Grain in steel is far, far, too tiny to see with the unaided eye.  What you're seeing are the sheer boundaries in the steel.  The little individual points that have been stressed to the point of breaking.  Now here's the problem from a manufacturing standpoint.  We of course want our tools to be sharp and to stay sharp.  In order for that to happen, the steel has to be heat treated and then tempered with the end result that the steel is fairly hard.  The harder it is, the longer it will keep an edge.  The tradeoff is brittleness.  The harder a steel is, the more brittle it becomes, which means that sheer forces (forces from the side) can easily break off one of the tongs of a pricker if your not careful in both how you strike it and how you pull it out.  As far as this particular tool goes, it could very well have had a "grain boundary" issue that made it more prone to snapping.  Things like that are impossible to control from a manufacturing standpoint, although proper heat treating tends to minimize the possibility.  The bottom line is this...I wouldn't condemn a company's entire product line base upon one incident.   This sort of thing could happen with anyone's tool no matter who made it or how much it cost.  Now then, if several of us were to report the issue, or even if you had more than one of these break on you, then we might be on to something.  Incidentally, I'm in no way affiliated with this manufacturer but I do grind and heat treat my own knives and know a bit about steel as a result...as limited as that knowledge might be, but we're all still learning something new every day.  Otherwise, why bother, right?   

Edited September 21, 2016 by TonyRV2

[OLDNSLOW]

Ya Bor I am in the same boat, going from a decent income in most regards, to what it is in the Golden years is an adjustment, so money has to be spent wisely and on decent tools, it is like buying Snap on vs HF anyway hope you purchase with the amazonians goes well!

 

[Boriqua]

Hey Tony rest assured I am not knocking Seiwa. I said in my original post it was about information. Evidently there are very specific instructions on the Goods Japan website of which I didnt give a second look. I said "oh chisel" and failed to read the 4 paragraphs of text. Bad habit of mine but I know I am not the only one so my post is a heads up to other guys ..and girls .. for whom instructions are something generally ignored. I mean ... its a chisel!

So if you are using it for holsters doing it the way I suggested by punching through the top layer and then gluing and then poking through the back with an awl should mean you get to keep your $20 chisel.

Having said that .. I do know tools pretty well and am very familiar with heat treat and tempering ... if you ask me and I were designing a tool that will be hit with a mallet through a somewhat dense material I would have drawn it back some. A chisel is not a knife and just doesn't need to be that hard for this intended purpose. Good wood working tools.. yup I want em pretty hard but a chisel for punching holes shouldnt be but .. its just my opinion. Still, used correctly the seiwa 5mm chisels are great tools that are the perfect size for 1mm or .035 thread and make a beautiful consistent hole at a proper angle.

I dont use chisels that frequently so if the Chinese chisels work for my intended purpose without to much care and feeding I will be happy to pocket the savings.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Boriqua

[TonyRV2]

I think a tool like a pricking iron walks a fine line in terms of metallurgy.  Too hard and its too brittle, too soft and the prongs bend and it won't stay sharp.  I can tell you this though....I bought an inexpensive set somewhere....4 tools for around 10 bucks I think, a 1,2,4, and 6 prong if I remember right, and haven't had a lick of trouble with them, knock on wood.  Ok...I went and grabbed a link....  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CBRMRNI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For a cheap set they had decent reviews, and at the time I didn't know if I'd like using this kind of tool or not.  As it turns out, I prefer them over the stitching wheel and if I ever buy another set I may look for something more upper end, but so far so good with these.

[MADMAX22]

Tony that picture shows it was a very bad heat treat. A properly heat treated steel when snapped will have a smooth fine powdery look even on the little raised hills from the break. When a heat treated steel looks like cast iron when ya snap it points to poor heat treat. that and/or very poor quality steel. 

[Trox]

It's cast iron of course, crap! If not is very bad heat threatment. Should not be that coarse grits on proper heat treated tool steel.

[Boriqua]

I Finally received my chisels from China. They are the flat ones which I actually prefer very much more than the round ones for alignment. I have completed a holster and a few mag pouches since receiving them. I received a 1,2,4 and 6 prong for it turns out a little less than $7.00 for the entire set. What is nice compared to the black tandy chisels is each chisel makes the same sized hole. With my Tandy black chisels the 6 prong made one size of holes the 4 another and the 2 and 1 made a huge hole. Really ruins the look of your stitching when the holes arent the same size.

I got impatient and ordered a set of 4mm and 5mm/6spi and 5spi from Amazon distributed by Crazy Eve. They were a little more expensive and their 4 pc sets cost a little under $15.00 each. Still I got 2 complete sets for $30.00 which is a huge cost savings over some of the other brands out there. In truth .. I am sure the ones I got direct from china and the ones from amazon are very similar in how and where they are manufactured. I find the ones I got direct to be finished a touch nicer but it could have been from a Wednesday batch and nothing more. The crazy eve as well made consistent sized and spaced holes through all 4 chisels. I have to use them more to give them a full on seal of approval but so far .. I am digging them and the extra bit of money I got to keep in my pocket. Perfect angle on the stitches and uniformity!

The 4mm makes a hole that is about 2.2mm. Works well with my Small Vergez awl blade but a bit to narrow for the thread I usually use. Since I am following up with an awl its not that important to me but if your not that could be useful info. The 5mm makes about a 2.6mm hole and my awl sings through it and it works just fine with heavier thread.