Need info and advice on presses and dies and things.......

[Dave4]

A few months ago, I bought a Goldstar press with two double-sided rivet dies (9mm & 12mm) and one #4 grommet die.  $125 delivered.

The 9mm set was actually a single-sided set with a flat bottom die.  See photos.  I sent these photos to Goldstar and asked for a replacement.  I got a very quick and very short reply:  "

hi, 

this is a correct die, "

xxxxxxxxxx!

So I placed several phone calls and sent more email and photos (unpleasantly worded).  I literally had to teach the owner and his employee the difference between a double and single sided rivet and associated die set, because they absolutely had no idea about the significance of flat-faced vs concave-faced rivet dies.  Not kidding.  They had no idea.  

I asked for a quick overnight replacement because their mistake had bottlenecked our run.  They did ultimately ship a replacement, but in 10mm size, because they didn't have double sided sets in 9mm, they only had single-sided sets in 9mm that were packaged in bags labeled 9mm double-sided.  They shipped the 10MM replacement ground, arrived 5 days later.  Nice.  

The hinge pin for the press was a loose-fitting threaded bolt.  I replaced it with a 6" x 1/4" steel rod (nice tight fit), then drilled a wood dowel and drove the dowel onto the rod, creating a handle.  See photo. 

Ultimate outcome: a week late, we were finally setting rivets, although we were using a 10mm die to set our 9mm rivets.  It worked, so we just did it.  

Yes - we were frustrated by the whole experience.    

Fast forward to today: we tried the #4 Goldstar grommet die (designed to work with Goldstar 28x15x9mm grommets) with our pre-existing supply of Ah Kwok 23x14x7mm grommets.  Unsurprisingly, and through no fault of Goldstar, they don't work.  This is actually what led me to post today, I guess everything before this point is just FYI stuff that is fair for me to share with the board because it might help someone in the future.

I'm at a decision point:

I can abandon Goldstar completely and buy a different press with the rivet and grommet dies I need, or I can buy some Goldstar #4 grommets for the dies I already have and also some additional Goldstar  #3 grommets and dies, because my next project requires those.  If I abandon Goldstar, I gotta spend ~$300-$500.  If I stay with Goldstar, I only have to spend $150, but I have two potential problems:

1 - who knows what they will ship me once I place my order;

2 - Goldstar grommets in #3 and #4 size have 2 or 3mm longer necks than most other vendors.  It seems like a 5 or 6mm neck is common, they are selling 7 or 9mm necks.  My fabric thickness is not super thick; I place grommets in 2 or 3 layers of 12oz linen, or one layer each of 4oz leather and 12 oz linen.   Am I correct in thinking that Goldstar grommet necks are just too long for most applications?  What happens when the neck is too long?  Will it still curl away nicely, or will it pile up and look like crap?  

Faced with many decisions, I started reading.  A lot.  Woe the lack of standardization in rivets and grommets and snaps and dies and presses!  What a freakin mess this is.  

Below is a photo of the Goldstar grommet die.  It is unlike most grommet dies you see from other vendors.  Fasnap shows a similar die set here for $218 (wow).  Is this style of die a dual function hole-cutting grommet die, intended to cut the hole as well as press the grommet?   Or, is it just a different design that is still mainly intended to press grommets into pre-existing holes?   Goldstar sells hole-cutter dies.  I'm not sure whether I need hole cutter dies with this style grommet die.  Goldstar won't know.  So I gotta ask here.  

If you buy a dual function hole-cutting grommet-pressing die, does it require the accompanying use of self-cutting grommets, or does the die do the cutting work all by itself?  

IMO - with thick fabrics or thin soft leathers, the best approach would seem to be a 2-stage process of cutting the hole with a hole cutter die, then placing the grommet with a grommet setter die.  It seems to me that self-cutting dies and/or self-cutting grommets may be well-suited to thin stuff, but will likely struggle in thick material.  What is your experience?  Is there such an animal as a 12mm or 14mm self-cutting grommet-setting die system that will work effectively in thicker material?  

Vendors I looked at:

Fasnap - can't afford it.    

Weaver Little Wonder - good press, but $350.  Die sets are $30 to $40 each.  For me, it would be $500 for the press with 4 die sets, no cutting die included.    

Ohio Travel Bag - press is $165, 3-piece grommet die sets (cutter incl) are $60 each, only 2 available sizes of rivet dies available, no clear distinction between ss vs ds rivets (you use the same die for both), only 2 sizes of snap dies available.  For me, it would be $480 for the press + 4 die sets, cutter included.    

Harbor freight arbor press - $50, customize it to fit whatever die system you want; perhaps overlap several 3/8 "American size" die systems.  Not as handy as a simple "squash it" press because you gotta manipulate the slider handle, but adaptable to just about any die and therefore any component.  Anyone here done this?  Tips, advice?  What dies are you using?  Photos?  

Green Grizzly!! - UK, nice looking cast aluminum press with complete die sets sold in very affordable package deals, plus good selection of colors and sizes of rivets, grommets, and snaps.  Here is a press with 19 die sets for less than $300 delivered.   The press looks pretty decent.  Anyone using this?  Tips or advice?  Anyone discovered crossover compatibility with other brands of components or dies?

Goldstar - pretty full selection of components and dies, but uncertain whether you will get what you ordered, mild language barrier, no product knowledge, not the greatest press.      

I think I'm leaning towards Green Grizzly, but would like to hear from the hive.  What else is out there?  

I need to learn more about crossover compatibility of dies and components.  I need to learn if ladies hate the arbor press approach, because I'm married to a lady who will be using the press.  

Sorry for this massive post, but I just got to that point where I have way too many hours invested in trying to get a simple rivet and grommet press system set up, and my brain is no longer functioning effectively, so I wrote a summary of where I'm at and I will look at it again tomorrow.  I chose to save my summary here because you can get some really good help and advice on this forum.  :D

[billybopp]

It looks like the Green Grizzly has a pretty shallow throat depth, so that could be a problem depending on what you are doing.  The Tandy rivet press is on sale right now for $170.00.  Some of the die sets are on sale as well.   It might be worth a look for you.  

Bill

[HobbledCobbler]

I bought the exact same press with 3 dies off of Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grommet-Machine-3-Die-0-2-4-900-Grommets-Eyelet-Hand-Press-Tool-Banner-/300640050149?hash=item45ff8b1be5:g:DqkAAOSw4shX5QTB

For $57 + free shipping

The same people that sell those presses sell refills and some sell other dies.

GoldStar said that their dies fit into my press and that they would get in the Speed Lace Hook die but they never have yet. I did verify that the holes in his press were the same as the holes in mine and that the dies were interchangeable.

To find out if you can get other dies from other places (and a LOT of it is usually the same exact thing), measure the diameter and height of your die pieces and the holes they fit into.

Now Twist Presses have a different system size and the hole that receives the dies are different. But they do carry different presses and different dies.

You might want to call them up!

http://www.campbell-randall.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fastening_Machines.pdf

This is part of their product and prices:

http://www.campbell-randall.com/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_96&sort=pd.name&order=ASC

I can't comment on the QUALITY. I bought it and put it aside until we get our house upgrades finished. Have a feeling I'll be able to get some done this winter though.

 

[TomG]

Dave,  Can you post pictures of the 10M set - I'm assuming that they are double cap sets?  I have the same press and I have the 8mm and 9mm sets.  It presses double cap rivets fine.  That being said, I DO have to put the cap end down and the post end up to get good, consistent results. But mine look identical to the ones you show. But, both have a very shallow curvature on the bottom die. You have to look closely, but it's there.

One point with these dies -- The double caps they fit are everyone's product, except Tandy.  Goldstars rivets have 8mm caps   They claim other vendors "mediums" are 8mm as well.  Tandy states their medium is 8mm as well, but it measures 9mm. 

Tandy has a very nice-looking press now and feels good.  But I have a real problem paying $60 to $120 for dies. If I were running a production line, I could maybe justify it based on them appearing to be more heavy duty. But not for some 200 or so rivets a month.

Of.  The Goldstar Line 20 die set will not set the socket part (I think) of the Tandy line 20's.  I've got some line 20's from Zack White and one other vendor and they fit fine.  If I start doing a lot of Line 20's I'll buy another set, chuck the socket die into a lathe or drill press and knock the diameter down about 2mm or so.  Will probably take all of 3 minutes.

I also had a few phone and email conversations with the owner (Dave?). He was OK to deal with.  Not overly friendly, but not at all hostile.  He was cooperative when I had to exchange my first set of dies due to that size issue. But I have read threeads here where folks have had issues with him like yours. No telling <g>

Appreciate any pictures of those 10mm dies.

 

[Dave4]

Hi Tom.  Yes, it was Dave.   

I'm learning more:  the style of grommet die in my photo above is for self-cutting grommets.  The upper die captures and holds the grommet inverted.  You wedge it into the spring-bound outer ring and it just sticks there.  The lower die holds the washer.  The grommet edge cuts the material as you actuate the ram.  The die itself has no cutting action.  The grommet OD must match the upper die exactly, or the die won't capture it.  

The other type of die used with self-cutting grommets is a cylinder with a protruding split (forked) center pin.  You pinch the split pin halves together, place the grommet over the pin, and release the pinch to capture the grommet.  My personal progress is realizing that i don't need either type.  I just need standard grommet dies, because we think that a hole cutter die will be necessary for our thick pieces, rather than trying to cut each hole with the grommet edge.  

What i still need to learn more about is neck length.  If the compressed material thickness is 3mm, how long a neck can you run before you simply have too much neck length?  We succeeded with a 7mm neck, but the grommet size we want has a 9mm neck from some vendors, and i'm reluctant to buy them without trying to first learn whether 6mm of excess neck will simply be too much.  

Tandy doesn't have dies for grommet sizes we use, and their die prices are just too dang high.  Their grommet dies max out at 1/4" size grommet.  We need 7/16"+.  Thanks for the link though, I did check it out.  The Tandy press looks the same as the campbell randall HP1 press linked by the hobbled one.  I'm studying on whether it runs a standard 3/8 base die, and if so, what other die families might fit the sale-price Tandy press and allow you to get away from Tandy components and dies.  

Hob - your ebay link doesn't look like the exact press i got from Goldstar.  To me, the ebay unit looks much better.  It's good to know that the GS dies fit that press.  Press price is good, but my current need is not finding another press for the same die family.  

Bopp - agree.  In fact, the tandy press throat also looks stingy.  

Photo attached.  

Rivets heads have a very shallow dome, and rivet dies require only a very shallow concave shape to keep from crushing the dome during the set.  If you get the light at a good angle, it is very easy to distinguish between a concave and flat die face.  The concave faces have circular machining marks and make a prevalent "propeller" ghost in the light.  Flat die faces just look flat.  

Single-sided rivets can be set with a double-sided die, but not vice versa, as the one flat face of a SS die will mar the dome on one side of a DS rivet.  The photo shows my GS rivet dies: the incorrect 9mm die that was labeled "double sided", the replacement 10mm DS die, and the original and proper 14mm DS die.  Is this photo what you needed?  

I'm open to more feedback and advice.  My goal is a decent press with dies for 6mm, 8 or 9mm, and 12 or 14mm SS and DS rivets, also setter and hole-cutter dies for #3, #4, and #5 roll crimp 2-part grommets in antique brass and nickel colors (this is the 7/16 to 5/8" ID neighborhood, or 10 to 15mm), also snap dies for good snaps, which I need to learn more about, such as which snaps are most prevalent and why.  

Thanks!

Edited November 5, 2016 by Dave4

[Dave4]

Wrap-up of my personal journey:

If you're new to rivets / grommets / snaps, it is a mild shock to discover the incongruity of this particular arena.  

Hand-setting with a hammer and appropriate punch and anvil can be a good & fast fit for workflow because you don't have to move anywhere, you just grab nearby tools and whack your piece.  Hand-setting can also be loud, unhealthy for joints, and even inconsistent in terms of quality and appearance of set, at least for mortal craftsmen, and especially when you start setting large components.

Advance planning is good.  If you can order needed parts 1 month prior to project start, you'll have time to recover if your ordered parts don't work as expected.  A 10 day advance time period can be plenty if there are no surprises, or it can frustrate you to no end if surprises occur.  (Nothing new here).  

Presses are a moderate investment.  Dies for the presses are a bigger investment.  Not all dies fit all presses.  Even worse, not all components fit all dies.  

Rivet stem length is an important variable.  You need to find rivets that have stem lengths that match your project thickness.  A too-short rivet stem will make a weak or no set; a too-long rivet stem will be crooked or weak because of excess stem material curled up under the two halves.  

An eyelet is a grommet.

Some grommet providers limit their selection of grommets and dies to #0, #2, #4.  

Like rivets, some grommets have longer stems than other grommets of the same ID.  

Some good vendors will sell multiple stem lengths for the same size rivet or grommet, for example: 8mm rivets with either 8mm or 6mm stems, etc.  If their products fit your dies, then you are good to go.  If their products don't fit your dies, then you need to buy their dies or find another components vendor.  

Sometimes the only solution is to use 4 different vendors to get the components you need, and the difficulty of this task is compounded by the fact that not every vendor's components will fit your family of dies, unless you have a huge cross-component family of dies, which translates to big money.  Example: you cannot set an http://www.ahkwokbuckles.com/grommets.html 14mm grommet using a goldstartool #3 or #4 die.  ahkwok is a great vendor for excellent components at great prices, but they only offer a handful of dies, and no hole-cutter dies, and their dies won't fit other companies presses.  Goldstar is a great provider for presses and any die you could want, but their selection of components or colors is smaller in some areas, and their dies or presses won't fit presses or dies from some other companies.  See more comments on other companies in posts above.    

Self cutting grommet systems are for thin projects.  I haven't yet found a grommet setting die that has it's own cutting action.  All of the cutting from self-cutting systems is done by the grommet itself.  If you work with thick materials, pounding thin-walled grommets through tough material is not a recipe for craftsmanship.  You need hole-cutter dies to pre-cut the holes.    

Ring snaps are strong and usually "plainer" snap systems.  Their primary retention feature is a single split steel ring that is contained in the female side of the snap.  I'm pretty sure that rings snaps are the most commonly used snap in leatherworking.     

Spring snaps are not weak, are more eloquent, are usually available in more decorous configurations, and can certainly be used for leatherwork, but they seem to be steered more towards lighter pieces.  Their primary retention feature is 2 parallel wire "bars" observable on one side of the snap assembly.  

There are other specialty snap systems available. 

Ultimately, for me anyway, presses and die and components are a lot like sewing machines.  You need to put some money into them to get what you need, so newcomers should just plan to make some products to sell to make some money, and work their way slowly up to the ideal shop for their goals.  Or, inherit some money and buy a 1st class set-up on day 1.  

I realized last night that I had fallen into a whining paradigm, brought on I think by exasperation at my inability to quickly identify and buy exactly what I need for rivets and grommets and snaps for less than $500.  I think they call this "being new".   

Today, I contacted Dave at Goldstar and explained my problems with my original purchase, and i also provided a list of additional equipment I needed to purchase now (#3 grommet kit, #4 hole cutter, 20 ligne ring snap kit).  It took Dave 2 minutes to address and resolve all of my problems, without hesitation.  Bang.  Done.  I admit, I was pretty pissed off back in July, but that seems like a really long time ago. 

IMO - Goldstar and Green Grizzly offer the most bang for the buck in this arena.  They have extensive lines of dies and components.  If you are in the states, GG purchases will be accompanied by moderate shipping costs and overseas transit times.  I live in a west coast state.  Goldstar ships free and UPS ground is 2 days.  They stood behind their product line when I had problems.  So my plan is to expand my die and components family by staying with Goldstar.   

Thanks to everyone for their comments.  

Hopefully my wrap-up will save the next noob a little time.

[TinkerTailor]

13 hours ago, Dave4 said:

You need to put some money into them to get what you need, so newcomers should just plan to make some products to sell to make some money, and work their way slowly up to the ideal shop for their goals.

This. This goes for any leather machine or even hand tool. As far as raw materials go, leather was top dog, and still is one of the toughest flexible materials available, as such it needs tools that are tough. Tough tools can't be made cheap so they can't be sold cheaply new.

Sometimes this is the hardest lesson for people to learn. Leather is a great hobby and can be done frugally,  but is in no way cheap.

And all I ever learn is that I gots more learnin' ta do.

Edited November 8, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[Dave4]

A little more follow-up:

I bought the ebay press linked by hobbledcobbler above.  It's a nice press, better fit and finish.  It has a 8x1.25 metric thread where you screw the upper die into the ram.  It has a 12mm hole for the lower die stud.

The Goldstar press and dies are also a 12mm lower die stud, but they have a non-standard thread on the ram and upper die: 6mm major diameter (2.38") x 24tpi (approximately 1.06 on the metric pitch scale).  So the measured specification of the external diameter of the screw on the Goldstar upper dies and ram is 6x1.06.  It's just different enough that you cannot run a standard 6x1.0 metric screw into the ram.  You can however run a 1/4" x 24tpi screw into the ram if you can find such an animal.  The ANSI spec for 1/4" screws is 20 and 28 tpi, not 24.  Bottom line: Goldstar is providing a press and dies with non-standard threads, apparently to ensure that you cannot run their dies in someone else's press, or their press with someone else's dies.   

The Goldstar upper dies definitely do not fit the ebay press.

The dies from Goldstar are high quality dies and the selection is fairly comprehensive, so their kit is suitable for most purposes.  Their component selection is thinner than what you will find at other providers, especially for colors other than brass and silver and for components with shorter stems for use in thinner materials, but the Goldstar rivet dies do work with metric rivets from two other providers we have tried.  I'll find out this week whether the Goldstar grommet dies work with standard #3 and #4 grommets from other suppliers.  

The Ah Kwok grommets do not match the #0, #2, #3, #4, and #5 standard grommet dimensions.  They are high quality grommets and are a good fit for our uses (smaller diameter flanges for a smaller overall footprint but still having a hole big enough for our straps), but it is apparent that you will need their dies to set their grommets.  I'm trying to obtain the anvil stud and upper thread specs for their dies, to know whether they will fit anyone else's press.  

schwew!  

[Dave4]

The Goldstar #4 grommet die is much larger than a "#4" grommet from the ebay press kit, but the Goldstar #3 grommet die fits the ebay #4 grommet perfectly, so one man's 3 is another man's 4.  

Ah Kwok dies have a 19mm stud on the lower and an 8mm thread on the upper, so they can be run in the ebay press by removing the 12mm bushing from the press and inserting the die directly into the cast hole.  

[Sonydaze]

Over time, I ended up with an assortment of presses (bought used) and the dies that came with them....a mishmash.  Now a days, I mostly use a motorized press.  To deal with the many different dies, I have made adaptors for the different types, all to fit the same press.  I am fortunate to have both a metal lathe and a milling machine to make them and can often machine an adapter in about the same time as finding and ordering a new die (without having to wait for it to get here).  Although many of my dies have the top die with 24 threads/inch, I had to order a tap from a company in New Jersey to get around this... not commonly used in anything else.

My opinion: If your business has grown to the point where it has become impractical to do things with hand tools, then spend a bit more buying from someone like Weaver Leather or Ohio Travel Bag that have proven products and good customer service.  Use the time saved and lack of frustration to grow your business more.