Looking for a new machine

[Bradford]

Looking to get a new machine in 2017. Looking at the Cowboy 4500 or the Cobra 4, give it to me straight which one is better. I am primarily doing duty belts, holsters, and sheaths.

[MADMAX22]

You got a quarter? 

[MADMAX22]

Seriously though I would look at who is closer, Dont forget Neels Saddlery as well. Pretty sure he is east coast, Bob is pretty  much east coast, Steve is west coast. 

[Bradford]

So I take it both machines are comparable? 

[TinkerTailor]

8 hours ago, Bradford said:

So I take it both machines are comparable? 

Yes, essentially exactly the same, different paint. The techsew 5100 is also the same.

[Wizcrafts]

Bradford;

The Cowboy CB4500, Cobra Class 4 and Techsew 5100 are all known as 441 Clones. The 441 refers to the progenitor, which is the Juki TSC-441. A new Juki 441 will set you back approximately $5500, base price, plus optional accessories. A 441 clone is half that amount, often with all the accessories. These three brands are sold, serviced and actively supported by advertisers who financially support this forum. You won't go wrong buying any or all of these brands (one each for different colors of thread)!

The sewing machine advertisers who financially support this forum on an ongoing basis include (but aren't limited to) Bob Kovar (Cowboy), Steve Tayrien (Cobra) and Ronny from Techsew. Additionally, Weaver Leather is a major supplier, customizer and service provider of the high end Adler leather sewing machines.

[Bradford]

Thanks All much appreciated. guess it comes down to who is closest.

[MADMAX22]

I would buy from Neel's saddlery way before I ever thought of buying from Weaver. 

Weaver wouldnt ever support this site even though I am sure a good portion of customers of theres got turned onto them from this site. 

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, MADMAX22 said:

I would buy from Neel's saddlery way before I ever thought of buying from Weaver. 

Weaver wouldnt ever support this site even though I am sure a good portion of customers of theres got turned onto them from this site. 

Um, are you aware that Weaver Leather currently has paid banner ads that appear in the rotation on top of every page on these forums? They are indeed a paying advertiser who supports us financially. Refresh the page and watch the banners reload and you will see Weaver's banners. On the other hand, Neel's is not a financial supporter of our site.

[MADMAX22]

14 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Um, are you aware that Weaver Leather currently has paid banner ads that appear in the rotation on top of every page on these forums? They are indeed a paying advertiser who supports us financially. Refresh the page and watch the banners reload and you will see Weaver's banners. On the other hand, Neel's is not a financial supporter of our site.

I use a adblocker so I dont see them. Weaver didnt use too. Kind of surprised they would honestly. Good to know however I would still deal with Ryan (or Bob or Steve) before weaver any day. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by MADMAX22

[Singermania]

HI, its Steve of Cowboy Leather Machines in Australia, the guys are correct, its fair to say that most/all Juki TSC 441 clones are on a par.   After that its down to location and what you think of your available dealers.... and perhaps what is bundled with the machine at the price.   Out here we looked at what Ryan Neel was doing and set up something  similar, so we supply the machine on the best stand available, best motor and speed reducer, throw in about 6 or so different feet, matching feed dogs, stirrup and holster plates and the roller guide.   Watch out for these items as they are expensive to buy separately.

[MADMAX22]

25 minutes ago, Singermania said:

HI, its Steve of Cowboy Leather Machines in Australia, the guys are correct, its fair to say that most/all Juki TSC 441 clones are on a par.   After that its down to location and what you think of your available dealers.... and perhaps what is bundled with the machine at the price.   Out here we looked at what Ryan Neel was doing and set up something  similar, so we supply the machine on the best stand available, best motor and speed reducer, throw in about 6 or so different feet, matching feed dogs, stirrup and holster plates and the roller guide.   Watch out for these items as they are expensive to buy separately.

Yeah they are and I still dont understand that one. They are relatively cheap even with shipping if ordered from China (where most if not all come from) yet go for the hundreds here in the states. Plus I have scene the blanket sets charged as extra, I may be mistaken but I thought the machines shipped with those feet from the factory.  

[Singermania]

We get in about $25,000 Australian from Cowboy each month, the Cowboy CB4500 will typically arrive with a double toe foot and smooth feed dog installed, in the plastic bags of goodies there might be two needles, 3 bobbins and a blanket foot set (two feet and toothed feed dog).   We buy separately the left and right toe leather feet, left and right toe dogleg feet, roller guide, narrow feet, flatbed table, piping feet and so on.   We then put together a package of what we think most leather users would want.   If a motor trimmer buys the machine, we leave out some of the leather feet and put in the piping feet.

So out here the machines are offered to our customers in a form that is put together by us..... I'm only guessing that that's the case in the States too, but the other dealers there can correct me on that.

It is possible to buy machines directly from China, not Cowboy though for Australia as we are the sole importer and distributor.   However if you go to Ali baba etc you can get a price that looks fantastic until you tell them you only want one, then the price rises steeply.   So you will pay more from a machine than we pay, you will pay more for shipping than we pay (as we ship bulk) and you will pay more to get it from the wharf to your property.   After that there is a chance it wont work properly without tinkering and you have to buy the other accessories.   What we try to do is use the money we save bulk buying and shipping and use it as our profit margin, therefore you would spend the same with us as importing yourself but get a machine that works, a machine that has a local warranty and local telephone backup too.

The other problem is that machines that didn't pass quality control the first time thru get bogged up and sent out to the wholesalers on these public sites.

We usually sell the CB3200 and CB4500 feet for between $55 and $75, I have seen them more regularly from other dealers here for $175.   We try to keep the prices down, however it is generally accepted in most industries that because of the time to do a deal on a single part, pick it, wrap it, post it etc that the mark up is very high.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Singermania

[dikman]

Just looking on AliExpress (Chinese ebay) and came across a Cowboy 3200 for around AU$2400. Pity about the shipping, another $1300!

[Singermania]

Yes mate making $3700 AU, that'd be bare bones, no extra feet etc, no Aussie warranty and maybe works maybe not.   We fine tune all of ours before they go out for $3300 or $3400 depending on table and get 3 packs of needles thrown in.

[brmax]

Good morning!

Singermania

As I was looking around in the last years at heavy stitcher machines with standard length cylinder. I did key in on the stands you set the machines up with and they are no doubt the best available! Great work there.

With noticing that and appreciating the duty of it clearly, I wanted to ask Neel about this option and as usual quick response received respectfully they do have that particular option stand available here in the states if wanted.

I thought this was a great time to add the HD stand you show in past photos on the site here is a great idea and well implemented!

 

Floyd

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by brmax

[MADMAX22]

Singer man I totally agree on getting the machines from dealers. My observation was about the accessories only. Seems like one heck of a mark up for a $25 part just to package and ship it out at $175. Of course it is a crap shoot getting stuff direct from china.  Wouldn't  mind some after market parts made for these that are a little  higher quality. I did get the ln line feet from Bob, they work good and we're at a fair price. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by MADMAX22

[Singermania]

Yes we like the extra heavy stand, we offer both the lighter and heavier stands, if anyone wants to save $100 and go for the lighter stand they can, rarely happens though.   We try to put everything handy into the package at our best price, which we feel is cheaper than importing one yourself..... hopefully its a win win.   People do import their own machines, we usually hear about it at some point and don't mind helping to get them going, we don't get shitty about it, we don't own the market, its a free world.

I agree about the price of parts, we often get complaints from other dealers saying we should mark them up more.  We are in the position of being a bit later in life, we own our buildings, cars and van, we just don't have high overheads and don't need to worry too much.  If it was 30 years ago and we were paying high rents, car loans etc it might be a different story.   But again I have been advised by people that sell parts that you have to have a high markup to survive.   Here is an example, Sillycheap Auto sell Anderson plugs for about (from memory, pls don't sue me) $8 each, I can order them online from China (yes exactly the same brand) for about $8 for 5...... I cant do the maths, but its an example of a big chain store that you imagine is cheap adding several hundred percent.  I'm not saying they are ripping us off, its what is necessary to survive in business.

I think what happens in business is that you have to make a lot more money than you think you need, so you can weather the bad times.   If the average wage in your area is $30,000, then if you are in business you need to earn much more than this to make up for holiday periods, staff sickness, downturns in the economy, faulty goods, theft, defamation and so on.

[Singermania]

Getting back to the parts, if there are any Australian or US parts manufacturers that want to offer us an alternative then I'd be interested to hear from them.

[dikman]

Steve, that pricing I came across certainly makes yours competitive. No doubt, if I searched more, I could probably find something a bit cheaper but for an item like that I wouldn't consider it worth the risk unless it was significantly cheaper.

I would love a Cowboy, but for my uses I cannot justify the cost (heck, for that money I can buy myself a nice Winchester 73 and a couple more revolvers!!). Unfortunately I've never seen one come up second-hand, which says a lot about the machines. A friend of mine recently got one at a very good price, but only because a mate died and his wife asked him to help dispose of his leather gear (the machine had hardly been used due to his ill-health). He did the right thing by her but still got a good deal.

[Singermania]

Quote

Yes mate, I think its reasonable, we are available 24/7 for backup plus a 12 months parts and labour warranty, so there is a bit more involved than just the purchase price.   Don't foraget also when you tell Alibaba you only want one, the price goes up.  Don't worry I'm not pushing one at you, I sometimes have a bit of time and get on here for a bit of a chat.  I have a list of people that want a second hand Cowboy, so far have not been able to fill any of the orders, similar thing happens with the Pearson no 6.   I think it can be hard to justify the price of a new machine if you are a hobbyist, full time professionals are different.   On the other hand a few people have $20,000 worth of Harley's sitting in their garage that only come out on sunny days...

 

[dikman]

Yeah, funny thing about the Harley (although $20,000 PLUS would be more like it!). I have a Moto Guzzi and a Bonneville in the shed and reluctantly have decided to try and sell the Guzzi - but the Bonnie stays!!!

I don't do a lot of heavy leather work, although I believe if I wanted to there is a small market out there for cowboy holster/belts, particularly if the price is right. While the machines I have are more than adequate for anything else I do, it still doesn't stop me lusting after a Cowboy . I suppose the other machines have just whetted my appetite .

[MADMAX22]

Singer those are really nice looking stands by the way, wish I had gotten one when I got my 4500. 

[TinkerTailor]

10 hours ago, MADMAX22 said:

Singer those are really nice looking stands by the way, wish I had gotten one when I got my 4500. 

Is that the stand that is ready to go to put a hydraulic/air lift inside the column? I believe i have seen the same stand available somewhere else as a powered height adjustable model with cable actuation to the pedals instead of chains and rods.

[MADMAX22]

6 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

Is that the stand that is ready to go to put a hydraulic/air lift inside the column? I believe i have seen the same stand available somewhere else as a powered height adjustable model with cable actuation to the pedals instead of chains and rods.

No idea but they look sturdy and I like the layout on the bottom.