Introduction

[dsenette]

i was thinking of just floating around and never actually introducing myself (sort of like an etherial spectre wafting in on the wind from time to time) but i figured it would only be polite to make my presence known.

I am not..have never been...and probably won't be a leather worker (i don't have the attention span to learn this stuff)..i do however like leather things...something about using a natural medium and coaxing it into whatever you want...is just nice. i am however very fond of metal sculpting, and i do it whenever i have time (and cash...the stuff aint cheap)...i also enjoy rock climbing ALOT...very peacefull... i came here because of your wonderfull admin (whom i know from her other internet home) and so far i like what i see...everyone here does awesome stuff and it looks like you're getting the "family" together which is always nice... my main expertice in life is computers (networking and other things) and that is also my current career (network administrator for a soon to be giant branch of an already giant company owned by toyota) so if you have any questions on that end of the world...let me know...i'll try my best...other than that...expect to see me floating around looking at all the really cool stuff and posting a few "holy crap that's really cool" replies.

[Johanna]

You may not be a leatherworker, but you are a great tech, and I'm glad you're here. You won't believe all the things these folks can do with dead animal skins. (Watch out, Monkey, or they'll try for your hide... We call those imperfections "range markings" and charge double!) Because of your experience with IPB, oh, let's be honest, because there isn't anyone else here who even cares what IPB is, here is your broom, start sweeping. I threatened to promote you, and I did. This is not like our other board- you can't call anyone a "dink" here. Explain tech things clearly and simply, and remember, all of these people have collections of hammers, and are not afraid to use them. They also have sharp knives in all sizes and shapes.

If you're going to be in the forum, you need to learn Leatherwork 101.

1. Measure twice, cut once.

2. Always cut away from yourself.

3. Turn the work, don't try to be a contortionist.

4. You can always make it shorter or darker, but not longer or lighter.

5. Never do a custom order without 50% down.

6. If it doesn't work like it's supposed to, it's junk, no matter how pretty it is.

7. If you leave roadkill in the freezer, someone is going to get mad.

8. You can never have too many tools.

9. Your work is only limited by your imagination

10. If you can get someone to hold and smell the leather, it's as good as sold

and last but not least,

11. Neat Lac (toluene) gets you high, but not in a good way. Get adequate ventilation or die.

Thanks for being here, and I hope you enjoy learning about leatherland (and not the kind that we clean off people's computers). People from all walks of life are represented on this forum, with outstanding personalities and talent to spare, and share. I feel lucky to call many of them my friends, and I hope you feel welcomed by all, and enjoy looking at the good stuff. The fellowship here is what it is all about.

Johanna :hug:

[dsenette]

i guess shoot me a pm about my actual requirements heheh (hehe another forum to babysit...great..see what hapens when you mention "adult section" hehehe)

[braider]

Greetings dsenette... While I don't have my adult section pass just yet - I'm wondering if there's any inside scoop/nitty gritty we can get from you about Toyota/NASCAR/Michael Waltrip/Dale Jarrett and the brown truck? ...Dave

Edited July 11, 2006 by braider

[dsenette]

um...i can't stand nascar...how many times can you turn left?

[Tom Katzke]

Depends on how many laps you run, then factor in pit stops. You have to turn right to get out of the pits you know. Me I watch for the wrecks. Used to like figure 8 races but do not even think they have them any more. Then there were the jalopy races, the ones were you could not pass clean you had to spin the guy out, kind of like Jeff did to win this week. No local track to go to so I am stuck with what is on network TV. Know how much leather and how many tools you can buy for the price of cable? Ok so I dug deep and paid the 6 bucks for 3 months of TNT on my trusty C-Band dish so I could watch the race this last weekend. How's that for taxing you tech-heads? Ever hear of C-Band? Yes it is old but I get to watch Mystery (for free) on PBS, a real convenience as it is not on till bedtime on our local station. Now look for a leather related post from me tonight. Tom Katzke Central Oregon

um...i can't stand nascar...how many times can you turn left?

[FrankZaharek]

Tom,

You only have C-band? no Ku?

[David Genadek]

Monkey,

I have a networking questions for you. I am looking at setting up a remote terminal in a tack room thats about 250 feet from the main computer. I am thinking I'm going to use an n computing terminal http://www.ncomputing.com/ncomputing/products/typel200.php

I'm running XP Professional on that machine it doesn't sound like the N computing units run Vista yet but they are working on it. I don't plan on upgrading to vista until they figure out all the kinks.

Have you had any experiance with the Ncomputing products? Is there a better way to get this done?

What is the differance between Cat 5 and Cat 6 cables? Would I be better off running Cat 6?

David Genadek

[dsenette]

i have had no experience with Ncomputing units...but it looks like a standard thinclient (no OS on the system...it runs an os from the "server" etc...) i'll do some more reading on the site...but it looks pretty much standard...

the MAIN difference between CAT5, CAT5E, and CAT6 are the twists in the wire....CAT6 has X amount more twists than CAT5 (i'll find out what X is for you) the extra twists reduce crosstalk and EMI interferance....at a distance of 250 feet...that might be handy...especially if there are any machines or other electronic widgets in the path...i run CAT6 though my facility exclusively...it's kind of just good preperation for the future....

i assume the reason you're going with a thinclient is to avoid having too much of a server setup etc...? thin clients are great for multiuser systems with different requrements etc...also good for software licensing (you only need to license office for one user for example)..there's also less to screw up..

do you have any plans to go farther than 250"? the max distance on CAT is 300" so you're getting close to the edge...you might investigate pricing on runing fiber to that location if you plan on having multiple PCs back there...fiber's getting cheaper these days (still isn't cheap)...always an option

[Art]

Hi David,

It may be easier to just go wireless, put an antenna on the house and the barn and everything is going to be compatable with future operating systems. The ncomputing thing gets more cost effective as the number of workstations rises, however with the cost of computers today that incentive may be dwindling. Cat 6 is Gigabit and Cat 5 in 100mbit, 10 times the difference but suseptable to the weakest link. Cat 6 will probably work better over the 250 run. You might have a time finding Cat 6 buriable cable. Speeds are reasonable for wireless n routers and antennas that extend the range are redily available.

Art

Monkey,

I have a networking questions for you. I am looking at setting up a remote terminal in a tack room thats about 250 feet from the main computer. I am thinking I'm going to use an n computing terminal http://www.ncomputing.com/ncomputing/products/typel200.php

I'm running XP Professional on that machine it doesn't sound like the N computing units run Vista yet but they are working on it. I don't plan on upgrading to vista until they figure out all the kinks.

Have you had any experiance with the Ncomputing products? Is there a better way to get this done?

What is the differance between Cat 5 and Cat 6 cables? Would I be better off running Cat 6?

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

Thank you! This is very helpful.

The person that will be using this set up hates computers so I need to make everything as simple as possible. Besides I only have a vague idea how to set up a network. So I wanted something that is easy to set up that she can work on just like it is her regular computer. If she had to start picking drives to save files to it would cause a lot of frustration.

I didn't consider needing special cable to bury. I installed power to the barn so I ran a special conduit the whole way for the cable. Will that take care of any special needs for the cable? I did wireless to my shop which is about a 100 ft from the router but then installed a cable which I have better luck with. Part of my problem is that the shop and the barn are lower than the house where the router is. The buildings are metel too which didn't help matters much. I didn't invest in the better antenne's though because with all things considered it seemed cheaper to just run the cable. I buy most of my stuff from Tiger Direct. On the Cat 6 do you have to change the order of the wires when you put the ends on or is that the same as the Cat 5?

I have a netgear router that I can do cables or go wireless with. I like the wireless in the house because we almost always have someone staying with us and that gives them freedom with thier laptops. One day I will get these con founded machines working well enough that I can do leather work again. Sigh, I shouldn't complain because they allow me to live in the sticks and sell all over the world but boy have I wasted a lot of time and money on getting them functional. Thats why we all need to charge more for our leather work so we can afford to hire computer geeks to come help us.

David Genadek

[Art]

Hi David,

If you are running at gigabit speeds you will need to have the manufactured ends, however if you are just running 100BaseT then you can get by putting them on yourself. Best way is to terminate in a receptacle on each end and use patch cables to run to the router/switch. There are 4 wires used, they go to pins 1, 2, 3, and 6; same colors on each end.

Just keep the cable dry and leave a way for condensation to get out.

Art

Thank you! This is very helpful.

The person that will be using this set up hates computers so I need to make everything as simple as possible. Besides I only have a vague idea how to set up a network. So I wanted something that is easy to set up that she can work on just like it is her regular computer. If she had to start picking drives to save files to it would cause a lot of frustration.

I didn't consider needing special cable to bury. I installed power to the barn so I ran a special conduit the whole way for the cable. Will that take care of any special needs for the cable? I did wireless to my shop which is about a 100 ft from the router but then installed a cable which I have better luck with. Part of my problem is that the shop and the barn are lower than the house where the router is. The buildings are metel too which didn't help matters much. I didn't invest in the better antenne's though because with all things considered it seemed cheaper to just run the cable. I buy most of my stuff from Tiger Direct. On the Cat 6 do you have to change the order of the wires when you put the ends on or is that the same as the Cat 5?

I have a netgear router that I can do cables or go wireless with. I like the wireless in the house because we almost always have someone staying with us and that gives them freedom with thier laptops. One day I will get these con founded machines working well enough that I can do leather work again. Sigh, I shouldn't complain because they allow me to live in the sticks and sell all over the world but boy have I wasted a lot of time and money on getting them functional. Thats why we all need to charge more for our leather work so we can afford to hire computer geeks to come help us.

David Genadek

[dsenette]

If you are running at gigabit speeds you will need to have the manufactured ends, however if you are just running 100BaseT then you can get by putting them on yourself. Best way is to terminate in a receptacle on each end and use patch cables to run to the router/switch. There are 4 wires used, they go to pins 1, 2, 3, and 6; same colors on each end..

well...gigabit or 10/100 or any of that has absolutely no bearing on the termination of the cables...they're all punched the exact same way (hell...doesn't matter how they're punched as long as the ends match)

for the distances you're mentioning...even with range extenders the connection will be iffy at best...and frankly...i can't stand wireless...it's more trouble than it's worth right now....any router or wireless NIC that's a draft N router/card is just that...a DRAFT of the protocol...i.e. it's not finished...i don't trust them...it's not that they don't work...but not ONE manufacturer has issued a guarantee to replace or modify hardware if the protocol changes by the time it's finished...not worth it...

if you've got conduit burried already then running CAT through the conduit will be fine....even if there's a little moisture intrusion...as long as the ends of the cable don't get wet you're fine

Cat 6 is Gigabit and Cat 5 in 100mbit, 10 times the difference but suseptable to the weakest link.

while it's technically true that CAT6 was developed at about the same time gigabit became popular...it's not specifically designed for it...you can run gigabit pefectly fine on CAT5 or CAT5E...as long as there's not too much EMI...and you can run 10/100 on CAT6....the cable doesn't controll the speed...just helps with interferance...(not arguing...just disambiguation)

[Art]

Well,

Sorry I stepped into your terrirory being as I only have 37+ years in the computer business. What a load of

BS.

Art

well...gigabit or 10/100 or any of that has absolutely no bearing on the termination of the cables...they're all punched the exact same way (hell...doesn't matter how they're punched as long as the ends match)

for the distances you're mentioning...even with range extenders the connection will be iffy at best...and frankly...i can't stand wireless...it's more trouble than it's worth right now....any router or wireless NIC that's a draft N router/card is just that...a DRAFT of the protocol...i.e. it's not finished...i don't trust them...it's not that they don't work...but not ONE manufacturer has issued a guarantee to replace or modify hardware if the protocol changes by the time it's finished...not worth it...

if you've got conduit burried already then running CAT through the conduit will be fine....even if there's a little moisture intrusion...as long as the ends of the cable don't get wet you're fine

while it's technically true that CAT6 was developed at about the same time gigabit became popular...it's not specifically designed for it...you can run gigabit pefectly fine on CAT5 or CAT5E...as long as there's not too much EMI...and you can run 10/100 on CAT6....the cable doesn't controll the speed...just helps with interferance...(not arguing...just disambiguation)

[dsenette]

well...like i said...not posting that for an arguement...but...if you want to clarify some things for me...then that would be great...since your 37+ years in the industry might enlighten me...never know..learn something new every day right?

what about gigabit traffic requires the RJ45 connector on the end of a CAT6 cable to be terminated by a manufacturer instead of being terminated in the normal fashion of placing the wires in the RJ45 plug and crimping it?

while CAT6 has VAST advantages (especially when you're running gigabit) over CAT5 and 5E....what about the physical cable makes 5 or 5E unusable at gigabit speeds? what is the detriment to running 10/100 over 6?

[wolvenstien]

I am not a moderator, but if I were, I would slap both your hands....

NO PISSING CONTESTS on the board....

the two of you being staff on the board should know better

I will put a stop to this with the following FACTS:

I do not have 30+ years in the computer industry, but I do however have a few years of installation experiance in both CATV/Satellite and networking (computer networks, POS, VOIP.... etc...) and I have used methods in both instances... I am not going to get into specifics... you are both correct in that what you stated is how you would do it if it were you, both will work in most situations, and both will not work in some situations... all depends on the situation. The situation stated above I personally would go either way, and I do not see a problem with either other than personal preferance and what I am willing to spend on installation costs and we arent going to get into that aspect of it...

Now kiss and make up.

Miike

[dsenette]

thanks for your concern wolvenstien..but i (can only speek for myself here) am not trying to initiate a pissing contest...while i do fancy myself to have a pretty large amount of knowledge with regards to this stuff (and networking in general)...i know for a fact that i don't know everything....if Art has knowlege that i don't...i'd like to have that knowledge...but i'd prefer for him to explain himself instead of just saying that everything i sad was BS and leaving it at that....that's all i'm looking for...

[Regis]

Well,,,,, I've probably got more computer time than both of you put together but that much time does not help much in cat5 or cat6 specifications. We didn't get into widespread Cat5 until early-mid '90's. Error correction is so good now that you can have a pretty messy setup and it still works.

BTW, When I started, cat 5 was a dream-size bull dozer with a huge diesel engine and had no business near a computer center.

Regis

Edited March 30, 2007 by Regis

[wolvenstien]

Well,,,,, I've probably got more computer time than both of you put together but that much time does not help much in cat5 or cat6 specifications. We didn't get into widespread Cat5 until early-mid '90's. Error correction is so good now that you can have a pretty messy setup and it still works.

BTW, When I started, cat 5 was a dream-size bull dozer with a huge diesel engine and had no business near a computer center.

Regis

LOL, I had me a cat5 when I was a kid.... it was sized down quite a bit... but I had one... I had a whole collection of Cat equipment... I bought my son a Quarry Dumper fro christmas, but it was all plastic and kind of made me mad that I could not find any that were metal like mine were... then about a month ago I go into a tool store here in town that I had never been to and only went to because Harbor Freight didnt have what I needed... when I was checking out, the check out girl asked if I has a catalog... No, this is my first time in the store... so she put this phone book looking catalog into my bag... I got to looking at it, they have a full line of Cat equipment and earth movers all in metal... and then some larger cat backhoes for the kids to sit on and actually dig with.... very cool... very expensive... most being average price of arount 30 to 35 each.... but I will start working on a collection for him like I once had....

dsenette

From this side of the conversation, it looked exactly like how I described it... Having worked as admin and mod on several forums like this one (format, not topic), I see stuff like that all the time, and it is something that can get way out of control very fast, even if that is not what was ment to start, it ends up going wrong because of a few words that are taken wrong or whatever... I am not singling you out in this reply, just that Art has not responded yet, and for all I know, you two are talking via PM and everything is cool... My point is that this is not the place for anything that might be construed as bickering. If you feel that this needs to go farther, take it into PMs or ask for a phone numeber... talking on the phone leaves less chance of mis commumication and taking a word that is ment one way totally different than it was ment....

[dsenette]

wovenstein...i don't meen any offence by this but...

while i appreciate your bantor and the fact that you may have been a mod or admin at another site......you're not a mod or admin here...i believe that you don't need to question my tactics, or my tone...especially not in this thread....

if you'd like to find out why i'm an admin here...then you can ask johanna....if you'd like to see why she hasn't steped in here as the administrator of this site to challenge me as you are...you can do the same...

other than that....i'd kindly ask you to take your nose into either your own...or someone elses business

[wolvenstien]

wovenstein...i don't meen any offence by this but...

while i appreciate your bantor and the fact that you may have been a mod or admin at another site......you're not a mod or admin here...i believe that you don't need to question my tactics, or my tone...especially not in this thread....

if you'd like to find out why i'm an admin here...then you can ask johanna....if you'd like to see why she hasn't steped in here as the administrator of this site to challenge me as you are...you can do the same...

other than that....i'd kindly ask you to take your nose into either your own...or someone elses business

I am glad you appreciate my banter.... But with the fact that you "don’t believe I need to question your tactics, or your tone.... especially in this thread" shows just what a immature person you are. I have made two posts in regards to your attitude not in a manor to undermine you, but to show you what you are coming across like to those of us who are reading your posts, and you are too thick headed and egotistical to see what I am saying and then you turn on me. Sorry son, that isn’t going to happen.

"other than that....I’d kindly ask you to take your nose into either your own...or someone else’s business" Again, showing your ignorance, ego, and immaturity.

More ego: "if you'd like to find out why I’m an admin here...then you can ask Johanna....if you'd like to see why she hasn't stepped in here as the administrator of this site to challenge me as you are...you can do the same..."

No, I do not need to ask why you are here... Like I said previously, I have modded and admin’d boards, and I know that I have staffed some sites with total jackasses who where just like you but I did not know it until they were handed some power. But the think that is different between this situation and those is the fact that the site admin removed the jackass from the board as to not cause any farther trouble.

You have shown your true colors, which is all fine and good. I hope you prosperity in any of your future endeavors. As I am sure you will need all the luck you can muster if you continue with the attitude that you are carrying around with you and that you have shown in your past few posts in this thread.

Good luck.

[dsenette]

especially in this thread" shows just what a immature person you are. I have made two posts in regards to your attitude not in a manor to undermine you, but to show you what you are coming across like to those of us who are reading your posts, and you are too thick headed and egotistical to see what I am saying and then you turn on me. Sorry son, that isn’t going to happen.

seriously...why you, or anyone else in this thread felt in necessary to question my tone in this thread is beyond me. i was asked a question based on my chosen field of expertise by someone who had an issue. i posted my answer...then Art decided to join in, which is fine, as long as he posts educated information...his information was incorrect (based on my knowledge base...and..honestly the facts) i posted a correction of that information...at no point was i condescending towards anyone in this thread and at no point did i state that art's information was junk....art felt the need (possibly due to ego? or some other factor other than actual knowledge) to simply state that what i said was "BS"....i then asked art to clarify why what i said was BS (which he has yet to do)...which is when you folk decided to question my tone...

why exactly was my tone in question? Art was the confrontational one here...no matter how YOU decide to read this thread...i was NOT the one being out of line here

"other than that....I’d kindly ask you to take your nose into either your own...or someone Else's business" Again, showing your ignorance, ego, and immaturity.

do you not consider roaming around and chastising someone for something that wasn't there immature? i don't know why you (or anyone) felt that it was your place to make a single comment here...this is a forum....we have a group of administrators and moderators...guess what they are here to do? moderate and administer this site...when you see objectionable content or someone who's tone needs to be checked...then you report the misgivings to them...not take it into your own hands....with no experience of your previous yahoo groups setup...i would venture a guess that this fact is the reason that it failed....you can't accept a standard process for handling conflict....

if you were in a conversation and someone started chiming in with complete nonsense...wouldn't you tell them to piss off? i was giving you the benefit of the doubt and as a courtesy decided NOT to tell you to simply "F-OFF"....apparently this courtesy was misplaced

More ego: "if you'd like to find out why I’m an admin here...then you can ask Johanna....if you'd like to see why she hasn't stepped in here as the administrator of this site to challenge me as you are...you can do the same..."

No, I do not need to ask why you are here... Like I said previously, I have modded and admin’d boards, and I know that I have staffed some sites with total jackasses who where just like you but I did not know it until they were handed some power. But the think that is different between this situation and those is the fact that the site admin removed the jackass from the board as to not cause any farther trouble.

this was not a statement of ego...this was simply an invitation for you to check your tone with regards to position here...as a person...i may or may not be any better than you....we each have our strong points...but as an administrator of this site...I'm in direct representation of the vision, direction, and control of this site...if you don't like that you can find another place to post...plain and simple...

so now...I'll kindly ask you to go pound sand and learn some manners...i'm sure you won't see it...but you've been given a large amount of courtesy here (not only by me) at this site...as far as i'm concerened that courtesy has ended. i hope that our paths do not cross again in this respect

[The Major]

Can someone please lock this thread before it gets any worse. :deadhorse:

Lets all just take a deep breath, kick back and share a brew.

Just end it. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

[dsenette]

this thread requires no more input except that of David Genadek (the person who asked the original question), Art (to tell my why my statement was BS) or Wolverine (if he sees fit)...absolutely NO other posts are required here

[David Genadek]

Right now I'm thinking I'll go with the Cat 6 cable, price wise it isn't that much more and it sounds like I'm pushing the limits on distance so I'm thinking the Cat 6 might help that but I have no factual basis for that assumption other than thinking that if it can carry more it should be able to carry less further. What I can do is run the cable about a hundred feet and bring it into my shop if there is something that I can plug it into to boost signal. I am concerned about address conflicts if I use another router. Should I worry about that or just run the cable the whole way?

David Genadek