How to determine what ton clicker needed!

[1CJK]

I was thinking about getting a Weever 8 ton manual clicker. For about the same price though I could get a Tippman clicker 15 ton or a Cowboy hydraulic 10 ton. I can really can't find and info about how to determine the right ton clicker. I would assume it has to do with the amount of linear cutting inches in the die and the hardness of the material being cut. I'm looking for one to click the end and holes on belts and holster parts in leather up to about 10oz. So what ton is needed?

[JLSleather]

That would depend on the volume of parts you're talking about.  I don't own any of those 3, so take it for what it's worth.  

I wouldn't pay $3000 for anything I have to operate by hand anyway.  The Harbor Freight press will let you do the same thing for under $200 (with 2.5x teh force).

If the other two are your only other choices, then I'd personally gather a bit more info on the Cowboy model.  

As for tonnage, you are correct -- the calculation would involve linear cutting length and shear strength of the material.  But with leather, even "blanking' dies require very little -pressure, and a clicker "knife" style die vastly reduces it further.  So with the small parts you're talking about, I don't think tonnage is a big consideration.

[1CJK]

I modified my Shop press for wet forming and it works great. The only problem I was thinking of is on some of the larger pices of hide I would have to cut them down smaller to fit between the uprights and could potentially create unnecessary waste. At the moment I don't have any dies because I'm constantly tweaking my patterns. Though I am getting close. I guess before I dish out the dough I will get some dies made and just see how things go. Thanks for your input.

[Mark842]

Not sure what the actual calculation is for tonnage per linear inch. I can tell you from experience that I can click 25-30 linear inch dies with 24 hole tubes included in the die on a 10 ten press easily with 12 oz or less. I currently own a 25 ton and 20 ton. Been my experience with clicker presses that if you have a large die that the press won't successfully cut in one shot, just hit it several times. I have some very involves dies that are couple hundred linear inches. I hit it 3 times per cut with either press moving the swing arm over the length of it as I go. Been doing this for years, doesn't hurt the die or the press.

 As far as the manual press like the weaver or a home built harbor freight one. I know people that have both and love them both. Whether you should go with manual or hydraulic IMO depends more on what you need in quantity. Obviously with a manual press like the Harbor freight adapted one you will be pumping a hand jack for each cut. If your only cutting a couple of items a day this is an excellent affordable solution. My friend did this, bought some 12" square by 1/2" thick steel plates off someone on eBay for a stable top and bottom with a cutting board on the bottom to protect his blade and he can click anything I can click. Only difference is I can click out a whole run of product..70 - 80 units in about 30 minutes. In the same amount of time he could probably do 2-5 depending on the die size and how many times he has to use it.

 If your lucky you may have a distributor for presses in your local area like I do. When I asked them about tonnage needed they told me bring down my dies and take a few for a test drive. If you don't have any dies yet, most have some basic dies for you to try that will give you an idea. My most involved die, over 250 linear inches worked with a Signature brand 10 ton. I just had to hit it 5-6 times.

[strathmoredesigns]

1 hour ago, 1CJK said:

I modified my Shop press for wet forming and it works great. The only problem I was thinking of is on some of the larger pices of hide I would have to cut them down smaller to fit between the uprights and could potentially create unnecessary waste. At the moment I don't have any dies because I'm constantly tweaking my patterns. Though I am getting close. I guess before I dish out the dough I will get some dies made and just see how things go. Thanks for your input.

I've been thinking about doing this. What are you using to distribute the force of the press? In this picture it looks like you've got a couple of metal plates and a cutting board maybe?

[1CJK]

1 hour ago, strathmoredesigns said:

I've been thinking about doing this. What are you using to distribute the force of the press? In this picture it looks like you've got a couple of metal plates and a cutting board maybe?

I will post more detailed pictures so you can see it better. I built it for wet forming but I think now I'm going to try it out as a clicker also and see how it does. Im almost finished with it then I'm going to take it part and powder coat it. I used 5/8" plates and added the 20 ton air/hydraulic jack. Since I'm going to try and use it as a clicker I want there to be a positive stop that I can adjust so I just don't crush dies deep in to the cutting board. I'm going to use (4) 1/2 fine thread bolts with a lock nut as positive stops. One at each corner. I'm going to tap them into the bottom plate and then use a height gauge and set them even and so that when the top plate touches them it's clicked through. That's my plan. I put some bolts on the bottom plate to give you an idea what I'm thinking.

[1CJK]

My plates are 12x20. I wish I would have gone with a deeper plate like 15x20.

[1CJK]

I may move them inside the frame not sure yet. Here's how I will set the height.

[strathmoredesigns]

That's really helpful info thanks. Assuming your plates are steel? Are they stainless or no and are they hot or cold pressed? This whole world of metal plates is new to me.

[JLSleather]

Standard cold rolled 1018 or 1020 (mild steel) will be fine.  If you're worried about steel contacting the leather, the cutting board will be in there anyway.

The bolts are exactly what I recommend to folks -- thanks for adding the pic.  For height, not really necessary to get overly critical on the height.  As a rule, most dies are made consistent height anyway.  Set the bolts to close, thump it, and adjust as needed  If teh hole is threaded, and you add a jamb nut, then you can remove the bolt (say, for wet forming) and put it back in teh same position when ready.  Likely ohly need 1, but 1 each side don't hurt (just longer to remove and put back).

As for creating waste, if you know the die you'll be using, you can cut the leather just slightly larger (which is what I do).  Since you save about $3k NOT buying a different clicker, it would take a good bit of volume to come up with that much waste!

[1CJK]

1 hour ago, strathmoredesigns said:

That's really helpful info thanks. Assuming your plates are steel? Are they stainless or no and are they hot or cold pressed? This whole world of metal plates is new to me.

They are steel hot rolled. The piece that the jack sits on is 4" channel. I was thinking about my design and thinking the 20 ton jack is way over kill. I returned it this morning and got the 12 ton. Looking at all the clickers online the 12 ton should me more than plenty for what I'm doing with it. I also noticed the 12 ton almost twice as fast pushing the top plate down than the 20 ton. If you have a steel supplier near you it will be way cheaper than any of the online suppliers. I paid $130 for all the steel locally. Online it was going to be just over $200 plus shipping witch was about another $80. 

[1CJK]

10 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Since you save about $3k NOT buying a different clicker, it would take a good bit of volume to come up with that much waste!

Very true! I think it is going to be perfect. I think I was getting ahead of my self thinking I just had to have a dedicated clicker.

[JLSleather]

1 minute ago, 1CJK said:

Very true! I think it is going to be perfect. I think I was getting ahead of my self thinking I just had to have a dedicated clicker.

I made the same mistake thinkin' I "need" a 5' brunette.  Once I sold that out of here, things started workin' out

 

[1CJK]

I think this evening when I have some more time I'm going to start a new thread on how I built it so if others are searching for ideas on building one for them selves it will be easier to find and all about the construction.

[strathmoredesigns]

How do you think a 6 ton a frame press would do as a clicker and/or stamp press? The size seems like it would be a better fit for my space. 

[1CJK]

I got it all done. I ended up painting the frame because I didn't have that color powder. All the black pieces are powdered in flat black. I have a bunch of JET tools so my OCD said this has to match. Now I just need to get some dies to see how it works. Total cost was right at $430

Edited March 30, 2017 by 1CJK

[strathmoredesigns]

That's sharp. Nice job!

[1CJK]

3 minutes ago, strathmoredesigns said:

That's sharp. Nice job!

Thank you

[HENDREFORGAN]

One question : with any power operated clicker the pressure can be - or should be - easily set . . even pre-set . . thus ensuring the ribbon steel tool doesn't get a hammering or your plastic bed protector . . but what about manually operated hydraulic jacks as above?  How do "they" - or rather you - know when to stop?

My reason is that I can use my welding and engineering skills to make similar to the above to suit our leather needs . . whereas here in the UK a reconditioned second hand machine costs about GB£3000 up to between GB£5000 to GB£7000 for a new machine.  So, a truly cost effective exercise then.

[JLSleather]

1 minute ago, HENDREFORGAN said:

How do "they" - or rather you - know when to stop?

That's the reason for the bolts (pronounced "positive stop").  Set the height of the bolts so that top plate hits the bolts just after the leather is cut.  If your dies are the same height (mine are) then you don't need to change height.

IF you also use the press for wet forming and thus need a different height on occasion, then add a jamb nut to teh bolt(s) so you can remove teh bolt, do the forming, and put the bolt back in the same position easily.

[HENDREFORGAN]

3 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

That's the reason for the bolts (pronounced "positive stop").  Set the height of the bolts so that top plate hits the bolts just after the leather is cut.  If your dies are the same height (mine are) then you don't need to change height.

IF you also use the press for wet forming and thus need a different height on occasion, then add a jamb nut to teh bolt(s) so you can remove teh bolt, do the forming, and put the bolt back in the same position easily.

I'm seriously liking your work here as I appreciate those who "think outside the box" and who will stay at something till they solve the issue . . much genuine respect from one who comes from an engineering family. 

[1CJK]

55 minutes ago, HENDREFORGAN said:

One question : with any power operated clicker the pressure can be - or should be - easily set . . even pre-set . . thus ensuring the ribbon steel tool doesn't get a hammering or your plastic bed protector . . but what about manually operated hydraulic jacks as above?  How do "they" - or rather you - know when to stop?

My reason is that I can use my welding and engineering skills to make similar to the above to suit our leather needs . . whereas here in the UK a reconditioned second hand machine costs about GB£3000 up to between GB£5000 to GB£7000 for a new machine.  So, a truly cost effective exercise then.

Here is a picture of the bed with the positive stop bolts on each side of the bottom plate.

[strathmoredesigns]

@1CJK where did you get your steel plates?

[1CJK]

1 hour ago, strathmoredesigns said:

@1CJK where did you get your steel plates?

There is a steel business in my town. 

[Brianm77]

So, I have been thinking about turning a press into a clicker.  My question is, any reason you should dedicate your press to being a clicker, over just setting some plates on top of your die and getting after it?