Want to get more depth to my carving

[fleabitpokey]

Need any tips or instruction here. Looking at the pictures posted by Clay of the Sheridan 07 show. First they are beautiful. Second,how do I get more depth in my carving? To get the depth ,is it the swivel knife cuts,actual stamping tools, how well the leather is cased, the quality of the leather itself, or do I need a big d--- maul?....or all of the above :biggrin: Any advice will be greatly appreciated, thanks Stephanie

[MatthewD]

I would love to know this also..

[Clay]

To get good depth, there are several things that you can do. First is the swivel knife cuts the should be 1/3 to 1/2 the thickness of the leather and they should feather out to nothing as they come to the center of the vinework. Then the beveling is usually done with a steep angle beveler. If you do not have a steep angel beveler you can get the same effect by tilting a regular beveler forward as you walk it. You don't need a heavy mallet or maul, but the impressions do need to be to the same depth as the cuts or more and also feather with the cuts.. I use a 16 oz maul most of the time when I tool. The third thing the gives the depth is the background. What ever tool you like to use for the background should be used so that the background is well compressed and even. I like to use the bargrounders with the tiny, tiny seeds. But I also use a A-104 alot.

Hope this helps a little,

Clay M.

[Dale]

This is a fairly open-ended question. To better answer the question, it would be best to know what piece(s) are you looking at. Depth comes in different ways.

[ClayB]

I think the other Clay (aka Bert) gave good advice. I think the quality of leather, and the casing will make a difference. Some leather is just easier to work with and when your casing is just right, carving goes better. If you leather is too wet, your cuts and tool impressions tend to close back up. If it is too dry, the impressions just wont go very deep. Another thing that helps on thinner leather is to rubber cement it to cardboard, poster board, etc. This allows you to get deeper impressions without your tools going through the leather. I don't use a real heavy mallet. I think proper depth to your cuts, and proper casing will make more difference than a heavier mallet.

Clay (aka Ernie)

[MatthewD]

I think that my biggest problem is knowing if it cased correctly. It seems like that I usually have it too wet. Can anyone tell me a good test that would give me an idea when I am in the correct "wetness" park. Not having anyone around to watch is a killer at times. I have been having a very hard time with using books lately for carving or braiding..

[whinewine]

I think that my biggest problem is knowing if it cased correctly. It seems like that I usually have it too wet. Can anyone tell me a good test that would give me an idea when I am in the correct "wetness" park. Not having anyone around to watch is a killer at times. I have been having a very hard time with using books lately for carving or braiding..

A pretty quick & easy way to determine if the leather is cased just right is, after wetting it, WAIT TILL THE LEATHER RETURNS TO ITS NATURAL COLOR!!!! Put it up to your cheek: if it feels cool on your cheek, it is cased properly!

The hardest thing is to resist the temptation to add more water- you think it's drying out, but it isn't. The key is the coolness on the cheek. Dry leather won't feel cool, but properly cased leather will.

Hope this helps.

[fleabitpokey]

To get good depth, there are several things that you can do. First is the swivel knife cuts the should be 1/3 to 1/2 the thickness of the leather and they should feather out to nothing as they come to the center of the vinework. Then the beveling is usually done with a steep angle beveler. If you do not have a steep angel beveler you can get the same effect by tilting a regular beveler forward as you walk it. You don't need a heavy mallet or maul, but the impressions do need to be to the same depth as the cuts or more and also feather with the cuts.. I use a 16 oz maul most of the time when I tool. The third thing the gives the depth is the background. What ever tool you like to use for the background should be used so that the background is well compressed and even. I like to use the bargrounders with the tiny, tiny seeds. But I also use a A-104 alot.

Hope this helps a little,

Clay M.

Clay M. thanks, I am not cutting deep enough. I will practice to feather. I will try to tilt my beveler. Is there a right way to use the bargrounders? Or do you just keep tapping until it feels right. I appreciate your comments,thank you.Stephanie

This is a fairly open-ended question. To better answer the question, it would be best to know what piece(s) are you looking at. Depth comes in different ways.

I am asking about learning in general. Not about any particular piece,at this time. Just realize that I need the appearance of depth. Stephanie

I think the other Clay (aka Bert) gave good advice. I think the quality of leather, and the casing will make a difference. Some leather is just easier to work with and when your casing is just right, carving goes better. If you leather is too wet, your cuts and tool impressions tend to close back up. If it is too dry, the impressions just wont go very deep. Another thing that helps on thinner leather is to rubber cement it to cardboard, poster board, etc. This allows you to get deeper impressions without your tools going through the leather. I don't use a real heavy mallet. I think proper depth to your cuts, and proper casing will make more difference than a heavier mallet.

Clay (aka Ernie)

Clay, I think judging the casing has been answered by both you and Whinwwine. Thanks to you both. Rubber cementing will be tried soon. I am going to go for deeper cuts on the next practice piece. Thank you. The help here is awesome.

Sorry just couldn't let the Bert and Ernie thing go.. Got me curious. Thanks stephanie

[Roger]

i would think most of what you were looking at was made from much thicker leather than you are working with.

besides proper casing.. a good solid work surface makes all the difference in the world!

[MatthewD]

Thanks, I will try that the next time I am about to do some work, which should be in the next few days.. working on a project for my son...

A pretty quick & easy way to determine if the leather is cased just right is, after wetting it, WAIT TILL THE LEATHER RETURNS TO ITS NATURAL COLOR!!!! Put it up to your cheek: if it feels cool on your cheek, it is cased properly!

The hardest thing is to resist the temptation to add more water- you think it's drying out, but it isn't. The key is the coolness on the cheek. Dry leather won't feel cool, but properly cased leather will.

Hope this helps.

[mulefool]

Thanks for asking this. I have always struggled with this, too. I get the cuts and beveling deep, but I have trouble with the backgrounding. It seems like if I hit the backgrounder hard enough to get it on the level I want it looks like a big cavern and I chicken out and background lighter. Maybe once you actually get the whole thing done it looks better. I do know it's better when things are properly cased. Does anyone ever press down the background with something like a pear shader first just to get it firm and lower, and then background? I mostly get orders for basket and geometric stamps so I don't get a chance to practice the carving as much as I'd like to stay good at it. Hard to spend time playing around when you're behind on orders.

[bruce johnson]

One of the best lessons I have received in the last year is to create the illusion of depth, rather than to beat depth into my piece. This illusion is accomplished by beveling at different depths (like lighter where stems cross than where the stem is next to background), Steeper bevelers to avoid mashing down large areas, fading the knife cuts, etc. It is not a crime to leave "high" areas in an element like a leaf or flower untouched. A smooth area between a depressed center and pear shaded edge creates more depth at each end than if the pear shading and center beveling meet. Another way to create depth is having a fair amount of crossing stems in the pattern, rather than everything on the same plane to start with.

Another option not mentioned yet is using undershots and propetal tools to raise and round up areas.

Regarding backgrounding, It doesn't have to be deep, as long as it breaks up the design and looks even. This can be accomplished by either texture or burnishing of the background tool. I have used matters to first depress the area in the background, and then textured with a stamp like a 104. I now mostly use a 6 piece set of backgrounders that are different shapes and sizes, but the same checkering pattern. I have a fine set and a medium checkered set. The are real time savers, less walking. The larger ones double as matting tools.

Like Mulefool, I do a lot of basket and geometrics on orders due to customer cost constraints. I am pretty healed up and able to swivel knife more - so I am playing around with more florals again on the stock items. It is coming back. I look at some of the carved pieces of Jim Jackson and others on 3/4 oz, and wish I could get that look on skirting. Those guys have got it going.

Bruce Johnson

[mulefool]

Bruce, where did you get the set of backgrounders? I've used the same 2 backgrounders for 20 some years. I really like the bargrounders, but only when someone else uses them. I've toyed with getting some from Barry King, but usually just end up getting some kind of geometric or basket if I'm in the mood to part with some money. One thing I do like in regards to the illusion of depth is when the edge of a leaf or some part of the carving overlaps the border. I always think that looks pretty sharp.

[bruce johnson]

I got my backgrounders from Barry King. I also had him make me up a few with even more distinct checkering (similar to a 104) but not a complete set. The fine is really fine - finished look is almost a smooth matte look. That is what really makes these work as matters also. The medium shows some checkering burnish.

Bruce Johnson

[skipj]

Does the "quality" of the stamp make a difference? All my stamps are Tandy. How do the stamps differ between mass produced stamps and the stamps from Bob Beard, Barry King, etc. Do the better stamps have more depth, how do they differ from Tandy for example. The price difference is enormous to me as a hobbyist.

Skip

[mulefool]

I think it does. On another thread somewhere there was some discussion on this and some people felt if you did a good job, it didn't matter. I'm not sure if on things like pear shaders it makes so much difference, but I sure do notice on things like basket and geometric stamps. The impression is more distinct. Nice and crisp. I think the color os better,too. Since I do this for a living, I can justify the expense of the good tools. Kind of rough when you feel like you have to take out a second mortgage on the house to buy a tool. If I were a hobbyist wanting some nice tools I would probably concentrate on the ones where they need to make a crisp impression, like basket stamps to start with and not feel you have to have ALL expensive ones.

[Roger]

Does the "quality" of the stamp make a difference? All my stamps are Tandy. How do the stamps differ between mass produced stamps and the stamps from Bob Beard, Barry King, etc. Do the better stamps have more depth, how do they differ from Tandy for example. The price difference is enormous to me as a hobbyist.

Skip

quality tools make a huge difference!

i got a set of barry king bevelers for my birthday this year and i no longer doubt weather they are worth the money.

also... l didn't think about lifters ect. after looking at pictures of what a lifter sorta looked like and what it did i came up with my own. i had this seat come up and this is what started my thinking about it.

lifting and matting will add huge amounts of depth to your tooling. i use 5-6 oz leather btw

Edited June 6, 2007 by beezachoppa

[yaklady]

I've been carving with some of the same tools I bought 37 years ago when I started leather work. Sure, I love Bob and Barry's tools, but the old Tandy's tools sometimes can't be beat. When I'm trying to get good depth on a project, I start with about 8 oz. leather of good quality. I use heavy illustration board for backing, and case it properly (put it in a plastic bag overnight). Deep cuts and good beveling is a must, as has been mentioned already. The part that counts the most for me is the backgrounding and matting. Tony Laier taught me to start in the center of the area to be backgrounded. I use an A104 that I've had forever. Don't hit it too hard at this point. When it's pretty well covered, go over it a second time, hitting it much harder than the first. Walk your tool over and over the area. Make each hit consistant with the last, to get it even. Tony says you should be able to shine a light across the background and not see any bumps. LOL! I go over it about a million times until it's as perfect as I can possibly get it. Once this is accomplished, notice the depth you have now. You will have square edges on you subject now, so round them out with your modeling spoon. I go over everything with the spoon when i finish akk the stamping.

Hope this helps!

Kathy Flanagan

[fleabitpokey]

I've been carving with some of the same tools I bought 37 years ago when I started leather work. Sure, I love Bob and Barry's tools, but the old Tandy's tools sometimes can't be beat. When I'm trying to get good depth on a project, I start with about 8 oz. leather of good quality. I use heavy illustration board for backing, and case it properly (put it in a plastic bag overnight). Deep cuts and good beveling is a must, as has been mentioned already. The part that counts the most for me is the backgrounding and matting. Tony Laier taught me to start in the center of the area to be backgrounded. I use an A104 that I've had forever. Don't hit it too hard at this point. When it's pretty well covered, go over it a second time, hitting it much harder than the first. Walk your tool over and over the area. Make each hit consistant with the last, to get it even. Tony says you should be able to shine a light across the background and not see any bumps. LOL! I go over it about a million times until it's as perfect as I can possibly get it. Once this is accomplished, notice the depth you have now. You will have square edges on you subject now, so round them out with your modeling spoon. I go over everything with the spoon when i finish akk the stamping.

Hope this helps!

Kathy Flanagan

Thank you Kathy, makes learning easier with help that comes from this group. Stephanie

[whinewine]

It sticks in my mind (perhaps incorrectly, who knows...) that certain background tools, like the A104 (which I don't like & do not use) & perhaps the bargrounders should be used when the leather is drier than is proper for, say bevelers, pear shaders & the like. This way, the pattern is not mashed down into deep, separate, choppy elements, but flow nicely into the overall pattern of a smoothly flowing background.

So, to modify my earlier post about casing: coolness to the cheek, BUT the leather should be somewhat drier when using certain background tools (A104).