Opinions on Cylinder vs. Flatbed and Machine Models for Handbags

[AresUniversal]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:19 AM, Deryk said:

check out this chart for the thickness of leather that you currently work with, and what you are thinking of working with  https://www.tandyleather.com/en/leather-buying-guide.html .  I am planning on ordering a Cowboy cb3200.  One of the bags I want to make the machine will need to sew through 3 layers of 8-9 oz vegtan and through 5 oz oil tanned which is 15/32" thick...  the CB3200 is rated for half inch and up to 5/8" thickness of leather.  But that would only be maybe 6 D-ring/strap holder straps...the rest of the bag is all 5 oz oil tanned.... 

So once you know how thick of leather you are going to work with then you can start narrowing down on machine types...and good luck finding a used machine on the low end... the CB3200 is $1695.00  plus shipping and accessories.

 

On 1/4/2018 at 11:01 AM, Yetibelle said:

I have been using the CB4500 with @uwe flat-bed table.  I like Uwe's flat-bed because it has a seamless fit over the arm, unlike the standard flatbed table that leaves a gap. 

So with this you get a true flat-bed and an arm machine, thus making the perfect machine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

This looks like the perfect setup! What kind of products do you make with it, and have you found the extra arm length and clearance necessary? 

[AresUniversal]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:12 PM, Uwe said:

Part of the difficulty comes from the common desire to find the perfect one machine to sew all seams on a product. This is the realm that domestic sewing machines are designed for - a dozen tasks, one machine.

High volume and/or high-end production outfits take the approach from the opposite direction. They usually look at one seam and ask which one machine is best suited to sew that particular seam. Then they move on to the next seam or type of seam. A simple looking product may involve a dozen or more sewing machines. This is the realm that industrial sewing machines are designed for - one task, one machine. And each machine runs north of $6K.  

At times it seems that the bulk of effort amongst participants on this forum is spent on trying to make industrial machines do things they were not designed to do.

Some machine designs are inherently more versatile than others. In my book, a cylinder arm machine with a good flatbed attachment is one of the most versatile combinations you'll find among industrial sewing machines.

 

Do you think a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment would be better than a two machine setup with a Singer 29k72 Patcher that has the swiveling foot on a cylinder arm, along with a medium duty walking foot flatbed, Consew P1206-RB? I certainly agree with the need for a multi-machine setup, but right now I'm flying by the seat of my pants, trying to expand my line of products in order to open up to wholesale opportunities . 

[Wizcrafts]

53 minutes ago, AresUniversal said:

Do you think a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment would be better than a two machine setup with a Singer 29k72 Patcher that has the swiveling foot on a cylinder arm, along with a medium duty walking foot flatbed, Consew P1206-RB? I certainly agree with the need for a multi-machine setup, but right now I'm flying by the seat of my pants, trying to expand my line of products in order to open up to wholesale opportunities . 

A patcher is not a production sewing machine. It is for sewing on patches and mending things (shoe uppers, purses, tabs on bags, small zippers in pouches). Even the large bobbin model doesn't hold very much thread. Mind you, no leather repair shop can be without a patcher for very long. The need will arise sooner or later. Also, the patchers don't have any convenient means of installing an edge guide. The foot is held in place by a curved torsion spring on the top of the revolving bushing, with backup provided by a thumb screw on the front of the head that locks the revolving busing in place. Sometimes that screw isn't there, leaving the foot direction fairly easily turned as you sew. You pretty much have to gouge a sewing channel to keep the stitches inline.

If you can only afford one machine to start, get a medium duty walking foot, cylinder arm machine. As money rolls in you can add a flatbed walking foot machine, then a post bed machine, then a patcher, then a 441 clone for the serious work.

But, if you are making holsters, start with a long arm 441 clone and work your way down.

[Uwe]

Patchers are a stage seemingly everybody goes through while trying to decide on a sewing machine. In reality very few people end up using a patcher to make things. Patchers are machines mainly used to repair things that were made on other machines. Of course there are exceptions. Patchers are like horse-drawn Amish buggies that can do things no modern car can do. It looks all romantic in pictures and when you pass them on the road, but precious few people are prepared to deal with hoof prints, droppings, and equine flatulence on a daily basis. I once took a very memorable open carriage ride up to Neuschwanstein castle pulled by a flatulent horse - I nearly fell off the cart from asphyxiation and juvenile laughing fits.

Yes, you can make beautiful things on a Patcher that you cannot do on any other sewing machine. I had a Techsew 2900 patcher some time ago that made an absolutely beautiful stitch on vinyl material ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFOOdQydD0), but would likely leave undesirable marks on the type of leather you want to work with.

Your best bet is really to take some material to a place with a showroom full of demo machines and try them out or have them demo it for you. In Ohio you have several day-trip options to choose from (Weaver, Neal's Saddlery, Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines).

No doubt the patcher crowd will chime, too (edit: like Wizcrafts did a few seconds before I hit Submit.) 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Uwe

[AresUniversal]

I'm extremely appreciative of all the help I'm getting on this topic. You're all incredibly knowledgeable, so I don't want to sound like I'm doubting your opinions- I just want to make sure I'm communicating the variables properly.  I understand that a patcher isn't a typical production machine, but would it suffice to use it as a secondary machine just for those "weird spots" in bags? I've never used an edge guide in the three years I've been making bags (unfortunately didn't know they existed), so that might not be an issue unless it's swiveling badly.

What really draws me to it is the prospect of topstitching sideways through a cylindrical duffle or bucket bag. There just so happens to be a Singer 29k72 about 15 minutes away from me on Craigslist for $500 that the user is selling after getting out of leather working. It's a beautiful machine and I'm a bit of a hoarder, but unfortunately my little collection is for garment production at the moment- the strongest of which is what I'm forcing leather through after I got rid of my Juki LS-321.

If I could make that patcher work I could save that for the few things I just can't do on a more affordable flatbed, which is my preferred machine type. But I don't want to fight the idea of getting a cylinder arm with a good flatbed converter if it's truly the best option for me. 

[tomsmith85717]

Honestly you need a cylinder arm and a post bed to do everything you would want to make  with leather, and then you need a suitable machine to do the linings. The equipment to  make good bags is probably only slightly cheaper than whats needed to make shoes.  IF you are dead set on a patcher you really need to get one with the absolute largest bobbin that company makes. The ONLY reason I would  recommend a patcher for bags (other than repairing them) is for ridiculously artful stitching like if you wanted to make vines or lines following  bees or birds... For $500 go take a look and take some thread and needles... and a bag give it a shot see if it can do what you think it can do. I have a cobra class 26 and it is fine I have some issues with its mid grade Chineseium construction but I think I got my moneys worth (I make wallets and bags daily). the next machine I plan on buying isnt a new sewing machine but either a splitter or skiver... then a post bed, unless one drops in my lap. Edge guides are nice but not necessary then only help so much .

[dikman]

A cylinder arm (with a table of some sort) will be the most versatile option, particularly if you're limited to one machine for a while. I bought a Chinese knock-off of a basic patcher (because it seemed like a nifty machine for the money) but I've never used it! I'm sure it'll be useful one day, but it is pretty rough on the surface of the leather!

[AresUniversal]

Ended up purchasing a lovely Durkopp-Adler 269-373 today- went with the cylinder bed, now I just have to make a flatbed conversion for it . Huge thanks to everyone who pointed me in the right direction!