Opinions on Cylinder vs. Flatbed and Machine Models for Handbags

[AresUniversal]

After months of reading hundreds of forum topics and opinion articles, I'm finally breaking down and just asking outright. 

I'm looking for the "perfect" machine to be able to handle the types of handbags I make. At the moment, I do most of my construction with rivets and a non-walking foot Juki (terrible, I know) to skirt around forking out so much money for a proper machine, but the time has come. 

About my bags: I work primarily with 3-4 and 5-6 oz chrome and veg tanned leather. My current bag designs are simple and primarily rivet based (photos below), but I'm expanding to a line of bucket bags and backpacks that my poor tired flatbed has simply refused to sew. I would have to make drastic adjustments to the pattern that will chop up my minimalist design.

A few months ago, I sold my cylinder arm Juki LS-321 (needle fed) because, aside from the needle feed mechanism not liking my seam overlaps, for the life of me - I could not get the thing to stitch straight unless I stitched as slowly as possible and held the leather tight from both the front and back. I have 6 years of rather intensive sewing experience on a flatbed, and tried to work with the LS-321 beast for a year so I don't think it was a learning curve issue, but I might be wrong.

Now, my question is this: Is it possible to stitch handbags with a flatbed, or is it best to get a cylinder arm and a good flatbed platform for it?  Further, what make and model do you recommend that is between $1-2k (preferably on the lower end) and has a good resource base of attachments that make production easier? 

I know this question has been asked a thousand times, but all of the topics I've read have had some caveat or compared craigslist ads they had found. 

[Deryk]

check out this chart for the thickness of leather that you currently work with, and what you are thinking of working with  https://www.tandyleather.com/en/leather-buying-guide.html .  I am planning on ordering a Cowboy cb3200.  One of the bags I want to make the machine will need to sew through 3 layers of 8-9 oz vegtan and through 5 oz oil tanned which is 15/32" thick...  the CB3200 is rated for half inch and up to 5/8" thickness of leather.  But that would only be maybe 6 D-ring/strap holder straps...the rest of the bag is all 5 oz oil tanned.... 

So once you know how thick of leather you are going to work with then you can start narrowing down on machine types...and good luck finding a used machine on the low end... the CB3200 is $1695.00  plus shipping and accessories.

[Yetibelle]

I have been using the CB4500 with @uwe flat-bed table.  I like Uwe's flat-bed because it has a seamless fit over the arm, unlike the standard flatbed table that leaves a gap. 

So with this you get a true flat-bed and an arm machine, thus making the perfect machine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mikesc]

I'm pretty sure that the machine that you'll need will be determined by the maximum thickness that you need to sew..

That said Uwe's attachments are very well made and make a machine far more versatile.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

7 minutes ago, Yetibelle said:

I have been using the CB4500 with @uwe flat-bed table.  I like Uwe's flat-bed because it has a seamless fit over the arm, unlike the standard flatbed table that leaves a gap. 

So with this you get a true flat-bed and an arm machine, thus making the perfect machine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

That looks sharp, and works!

[R8R]

14 hours ago, AresUniversal said:

Now, my question is this: Is it possible to stitch handbags with a flatbed, or is it best to get a cylinder arm and a good flatbed platform for it? 

This right here is the crux and I think it should be answered as "how are your items constructed, and at what point do the stitches need to happen in the assembly?" and not just "how thick?"

Obviously if there are points in the construction method where a rivet tool is the only tool that will reach into a bag and make a connection, then a flatbed won't help much here, and maybe not even a small diameter cylinder bed! Then again if the patterns and construction sequence lend to making flat stitches then a flat bed is no problem.

So to look for a machine you need to balance the considerations of your budget, your mechanical aptitude (which is actually part of your budget!) your patterns, overall construction technique and sequence, material type and thickness, etc etc.

Problem with industrial machines is you are talking about one machine that does one thing well with a narrow range of adjustment. (typically several thread thicknesses and that's it) If you can construct a bag in that range, you're all good. The wider the range of products, the more tools you will need, often with some overlap it capability.

Something like that 4500 with a flat bed is a sweet setup, but ultimately it's up to you to determine if that kind of machine is too heavy, not heavy enough, or just right, and if your work will even fit around the arm.

Oh and I must say, the rivet construction is really sharp. Nice work.

[R8R]

And I must say, if I were budgeting $1k - $2k that would be for a basic upholstery flat bed machine. You really should put about $1700 as your low end and go up from there if you want a machine that is good quality with decent support.

[brmax]

I would ask what is your present flat bed machine you mention. 

To the products in the photos they are a great design and have an appeal with the rivets that is a keeper.

  To first help answer your; looking for the “ perfect machine “ well need to look no further than the Adler brand, And with the Weaver leather supplier near you! How cool is that. 

I think most people here like the advantage of a cylinder arm machine. No matter the material, the craft or fabrication tends to favor the need the cylinder offers. Even though its a bigger step in cost so back again a choice in machines.

Here is a dilemma the standard cylinder arm and or the heavier duty machines are both expensive.  So maybe? the high percent of designs will be needing a cylinder for their items.

I think a big cup of coffee or whatever and one can decide if the product requires these. Its suprising what can be flat top machine sewn if it or the material is thin and flexible. Thats a thought? 

Moving on, So anyway Believe me if one needs a big table to support and or help control the fabricated project, then serious cups of coffee need poured. In this design issue a flatbed is a plus. Although here again we might be back in decision also needing a cylinder arm for another percent of projects. Wow! Back n forth

This I think is a point for many saying in realization the Juki 441 or its more accessible to us machines with their thickness capabilities are a staple with many leather worker purchases.

So with all this, a size of project in typical leather work favors an ability to use one of the cylinder arm machines easily.  This now is getting benefits from work tops that can be removed in short order, That is key. Not that I will do it but this promotes manfactures to design quick change options. And I hope many continue!

Back at the decision again? So how to determine if I need or is it do I want. Also what are my limits if getting a standard duty or a heavier duty cylinder arm machine. Obviously the project size, the thickness and material. Almost forgot the ability of the machine to do this capability 8 hours a day every day, as this is how industrials are project assigned. 

Good day 

Floyd

 

[Uwe]

Part of the difficulty comes from the common desire to find the perfect one machine to sew all seams on a product. This is the realm that domestic sewing machines are designed for - a dozen tasks, one machine.

High volume and/or high-end production outfits take the approach from the opposite direction. They usually look at one seam and ask which one machine is best suited to sew that particular seam. Then they move on to the next seam or type of seam. A simple looking product may involve a dozen or more sewing machines. This is the realm that industrial sewing machines are designed for - one task, one machine. And each machine runs north of $6K.  

At times it seems that the bulk of effort amongst participants on this forum is spent on trying to make industrial machines do things they were not designed to do.

Some machine designs are inherently more versatile than others. In my book, a cylinder arm machine with a good flatbed attachment is one of the most versatile combinations you'll find among industrial sewing machines.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Uwe

[Hockeymender]

I have to concur with Uwe on this one. I have eight different machines in my shop and each one is set up and adjusted to do a specific task. Things can go very badly, very quickly if I try to make a machine do something it's not suited for (or set up to do). All that said, it has taken many years to acquire the machines and the knowledge/experience to accomplish what I'm able to at this point in time. Trying to come up with one machine to do it all will lead to much frustration. Just my 2 cents. 

[AresUniversal]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:19 AM, Deryk said:

check out this chart for the thickness of leather that you currently work with, and what you are thinking of working with  https://www.tandyleather.com/en/leather-buying-guide.html .  I am planning on ordering a Cowboy cb3200.  One of the bags I want to make the machine will need to sew through 3 layers of 8-9 oz vegtan and through 5 oz oil tanned which is 15/32" thick...  the CB3200 is rated for half inch and up to 5/8" thickness of leather.  But that would only be maybe 6 D-ring/strap holder straps...the rest of the bag is all 5 oz oil tanned.... 

So once you know how thick of leather you are going to work with then you can start narrowing down on machine types...and good luck finding a used machine on the low end... the CB3200 is $1695.00  plus shipping and accessories.

 

On 1/4/2018 at 11:01 AM, Yetibelle said:

I have been using the CB4500 with @uwe flat-bed table.  I like Uwe's flat-bed because it has a seamless fit over the arm, unlike the standard flatbed table that leaves a gap. 

So with this you get a true flat-bed and an arm machine, thus making the perfect machine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

This looks like the perfect setup! What kind of products do you make with it, and have you found the extra arm length and clearance necessary? 

[AresUniversal]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:12 PM, Uwe said:

Part of the difficulty comes from the common desire to find the perfect one machine to sew all seams on a product. This is the realm that domestic sewing machines are designed for - a dozen tasks, one machine.

High volume and/or high-end production outfits take the approach from the opposite direction. They usually look at one seam and ask which one machine is best suited to sew that particular seam. Then they move on to the next seam or type of seam. A simple looking product may involve a dozen or more sewing machines. This is the realm that industrial sewing machines are designed for - one task, one machine. And each machine runs north of $6K.  

At times it seems that the bulk of effort amongst participants on this forum is spent on trying to make industrial machines do things they were not designed to do.

Some machine designs are inherently more versatile than others. In my book, a cylinder arm machine with a good flatbed attachment is one of the most versatile combinations you'll find among industrial sewing machines.

 

Do you think a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment would be better than a two machine setup with a Singer 29k72 Patcher that has the swiveling foot on a cylinder arm, along with a medium duty walking foot flatbed, Consew P1206-RB? I certainly agree with the need for a multi-machine setup, but right now I'm flying by the seat of my pants, trying to expand my line of products in order to open up to wholesale opportunities . 

[Wizcrafts]

53 minutes ago, AresUniversal said:

Do you think a cylinder arm with flatbed attachment would be better than a two machine setup with a Singer 29k72 Patcher that has the swiveling foot on a cylinder arm, along with a medium duty walking foot flatbed, Consew P1206-RB? I certainly agree with the need for a multi-machine setup, but right now I'm flying by the seat of my pants, trying to expand my line of products in order to open up to wholesale opportunities . 

A patcher is not a production sewing machine. It is for sewing on patches and mending things (shoe uppers, purses, tabs on bags, small zippers in pouches). Even the large bobbin model doesn't hold very much thread. Mind you, no leather repair shop can be without a patcher for very long. The need will arise sooner or later. Also, the patchers don't have any convenient means of installing an edge guide. The foot is held in place by a curved torsion spring on the top of the revolving bushing, with backup provided by a thumb screw on the front of the head that locks the revolving busing in place. Sometimes that screw isn't there, leaving the foot direction fairly easily turned as you sew. You pretty much have to gouge a sewing channel to keep the stitches inline.

If you can only afford one machine to start, get a medium duty walking foot, cylinder arm machine. As money rolls in you can add a flatbed walking foot machine, then a post bed machine, then a patcher, then a 441 clone for the serious work.

But, if you are making holsters, start with a long arm 441 clone and work your way down.

[Uwe]

Patchers are a stage seemingly everybody goes through while trying to decide on a sewing machine. In reality very few people end up using a patcher to make things. Patchers are machines mainly used to repair things that were made on other machines. Of course there are exceptions. Patchers are like horse-drawn Amish buggies that can do things no modern car can do. It looks all romantic in pictures and when you pass them on the road, but precious few people are prepared to deal with hoof prints, droppings, and equine flatulence on a daily basis. I once took a very memorable open carriage ride up to Neuschwanstein castle pulled by a flatulent horse - I nearly fell off the cart from asphyxiation and juvenile laughing fits.

Yes, you can make beautiful things on a Patcher that you cannot do on any other sewing machine. I had a Techsew 2900 patcher some time ago that made an absolutely beautiful stitch on vinyl material ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFOOdQydD0), but would likely leave undesirable marks on the type of leather you want to work with.

Your best bet is really to take some material to a place with a showroom full of demo machines and try them out or have them demo it for you. In Ohio you have several day-trip options to choose from (Weaver, Neal's Saddlery, Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines).

No doubt the patcher crowd will chime, too (edit: like Wizcrafts did a few seconds before I hit Submit.) 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Uwe

[AresUniversal]

I'm extremely appreciative of all the help I'm getting on this topic. You're all incredibly knowledgeable, so I don't want to sound like I'm doubting your opinions- I just want to make sure I'm communicating the variables properly.  I understand that a patcher isn't a typical production machine, but would it suffice to use it as a secondary machine just for those "weird spots" in bags? I've never used an edge guide in the three years I've been making bags (unfortunately didn't know they existed), so that might not be an issue unless it's swiveling badly.

What really draws me to it is the prospect of topstitching sideways through a cylindrical duffle or bucket bag. There just so happens to be a Singer 29k72 about 15 minutes away from me on Craigslist for $500 that the user is selling after getting out of leather working. It's a beautiful machine and I'm a bit of a hoarder, but unfortunately my little collection is for garment production at the moment- the strongest of which is what I'm forcing leather through after I got rid of my Juki LS-321.

If I could make that patcher work I could save that for the few things I just can't do on a more affordable flatbed, which is my preferred machine type. But I don't want to fight the idea of getting a cylinder arm with a good flatbed converter if it's truly the best option for me. 

[tomsmith85717]

Honestly you need a cylinder arm and a post bed to do everything you would want to make  with leather, and then you need a suitable machine to do the linings. The equipment to  make good bags is probably only slightly cheaper than whats needed to make shoes.  IF you are dead set on a patcher you really need to get one with the absolute largest bobbin that company makes. The ONLY reason I would  recommend a patcher for bags (other than repairing them) is for ridiculously artful stitching like if you wanted to make vines or lines following  bees or birds... For $500 go take a look and take some thread and needles... and a bag give it a shot see if it can do what you think it can do. I have a cobra class 26 and it is fine I have some issues with its mid grade Chineseium construction but I think I got my moneys worth (I make wallets and bags daily). the next machine I plan on buying isnt a new sewing machine but either a splitter or skiver... then a post bed, unless one drops in my lap. Edge guides are nice but not necessary then only help so much .

[dikman]

A cylinder arm (with a table of some sort) will be the most versatile option, particularly if you're limited to one machine for a while. I bought a Chinese knock-off of a basic patcher (because it seemed like a nifty machine for the money) but I've never used it! I'm sure it'll be useful one day, but it is pretty rough on the surface of the leather!

[AresUniversal]

Ended up purchasing a lovely Durkopp-Adler 269-373 today- went with the cylinder bed, now I just have to make a flatbed conversion for it . Huge thanks to everyone who pointed me in the right direction!