Softening Herman Oak Skirting

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I've certainly seen worst first attempts.  I would recommend lots of practice just sewing.  Sewing to a point on a return takes practice to make it look like it should.  The places your machine is wanting to wander off the bottom edge is pretty typical.  Make sure nothing is edged on that underside before you sew, and most of the time, a creaser is going to roll that edge enough to cause trouble also.  There are times you can sneak by with it, but most of the time not.  Just practice handling your material as you sew,, and paying attention to what happens as you make the slightest change. 

[Silverd]

Good advise.  The issue for me is dying the fresh beveled edges after sewing without staining the stitching.  But it can be done.

This is Throat strap I did last night...not without issues.  I started out with a 1.5" wide blank which gave me enough web width to place under the zipper foot.  Then I trimmed the edge back, beveled, dyed, oiled, waxed.  I don' like the hand stitching over the outside since it' susceptible to abrasion.  

[Silverd]

Thank you BTW.  If you look closely at the first sampe you can see presser foot scares all over the place.  The latest attempt was sewn after drying over night.  Still having tension issues.  

Silverd 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Silverd
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[Big Sioux Saddlery]

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

Thank you BTW.  If you look closely at the first sampe you can see presser foot scares all over the place.  The latest attempt was sewn after drying over night.  Still having tension issues.  

Silverd 

You're welcome.  Presser foot marks are something that you will probably not eliminate with a 441 type machine.  If you are using a zipper foot, if puts even more pressure on a smaller area, which means possibly deeper marks.  What are your tension issues exactly?  I can't see the picture well enough to determine what you might need to do.  What needle size and type and what thread size are you using?  Incidentally, a 441 would not be my choice of machines to sew rounds on, due to the foot design/feed system. 

[Silverd]

I can see why you say the 441 is not idealy suited for this work.   277 bonded nylon with a #25 needle.  I don't have a 26 but I'm placing an order.  Thank you for your time again.  I certainly appreciate it very much. 

I should be able to get the tension issues under control. I understand the princples of matching top and bottom etc.  Bottom tension was high and to match it top tension was causing thread to abraid.  Im working several projects all with different threads and sometimes takes short cuts when changing thread sizes.  The 277 problem was most notable when back stitching.  The stitches have been laying on the bottom surface of the leather straps.  I've since reduced lower tension and top to match.  So it's much better.  

Allowing the leather round strap to dry before sewing certainly helped with reducing presser foot marks on sample 2.  I've given some thought to this and think that by starting out with a strap that is very ; possibly 1.75" in the roled section will provide enough width for the right side zipper foot to make full contact whIle the needle foot is pushed hard against the raised roll edge.  Hope this makes sense.  I' m using a holster plate.  See sketch.  I'll then trim off the excessively wide seam allowance then edge finish being careful not to stain tge stitches.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Silverd
More words

[Silverd]

Bottom tension too light in this photo.

Have a great day!

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

FWIW, I want my bottom tension as tight as I can get it, which isn't all that tight on a 441.  Remember this: your stitch will never be any tighter than what your bottom tension is. Tight stitches is the end goal, especially when building equine equipment.  On one of my old, "true" harness stitchers, I have to pull thread from tension on the bottom with a pliers If I don't have any work in the machine.  THAT machine sews tight!  But you will not be able to get that kind of tension on a 441.  Also, leather thickness relative to needle and thread size can make it impossible to bury the lock in the middle.

The rolled work you are making is not considered a true round.  There is no way to get a perfectly round profile with this method.  I realize that the old halter you are copying may be made this way.  This method might be fine for purse handles, but I don't like it for equine equipment.  The filler should be a strip of leather and you should be sewing through it when you sew the rest.  When done correctly, and finished up, a true round is perfectly round, with no "lip", and the stitches are not visible.  It is a more complicated process though.

[Silverd]

3 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

FWIW, I want my bottom tension as tight as I can get it, which isn't all that tight on a 441.  Remember this: your stitch will never be any tighter than what your bottom tension is. Tight stitches is the end goal, especially when building equine equipment.  On one of my old, "true" harness stitchers, I have to pull thread from tension on the bottom with a pliers If I don't have any work in the machine.  THAT machine sews tight!  But you will not be able to get that kind of tension on a 441.  Also, leather thickness relative to needle and thread size can make it impossible to bury the lock in the middle.

The rolled work you are making is not considered a true round.  There is no way to get a perfectly round profile with this method.  I realize that the old halter you are copying may be made this way.  This method might be fine for purse handles, but I don't like it for equine equipment.  The filler should be a strip of leather and you should be sewing through it when you sew the rest.  When done correctly, and finished up, a true round is perfectly round, with no "lip", and the stitches are not visible.  It is a more complicated process though.

Ok...I understand.  The old harness is actually pretty round.. its end returns are folded backwards of mine however...A minor difference that does not affect the construction of the round.   I'm going off of Dover catalog photos of modern day equine tack and Seinke book images which I think show similar construction as I have going.  But now I'll need to verify.

  Got some questions for you:

-What is the ideal diameter of the round supposed to be?

-Is a Throat Strap made with a true "round" better or perceived to be better than one with a lip?

-It seems the filler piece should also have a round section?  About what diameter?  Perhaps a softened square shaped strip pulled thru a rein rounder? 

-Is the filler skived and sewn into the end returns?

-How does one stitch thru the center of the round section and connect everything together...I can see how two rows of stitching (one for each rolled edge) sewn through the center might work? 

-After stitching...is the round portion of the strap finish trimmed to give it more of a true round section shape? 

-Are two rows of stitching acceptable?

Thank you!

 

Silverd

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

 I'm going off of Dover catalog photos of modern day equine tack . . .

There are very few people making rounds in the old traditional way.  That's because it is more difficult and takes more time to do it in the traditional way. Time is money, and today's average consumer shops on price.  You would have to find a custom maker building high-end stuff to find the type of rounds I've been referring too.  I'm not saying you're wrong for building them the way you are. It just depends on what level of work you want to end up doing and being happy with.  The majority of people today don't know the difference.  For me, it's more of a personal thing to do things the way I do them, than consumer demand.

 

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

What is the ideal diameter of the round supposed to be?

That depends on the purpose.  For the throatlatch on these halters, I would probably shoot for 7/16".   3/8" would be a little light.  Greg Gomersall makes 1/4" rounds for throatlatches on fine headstalls, and that is WITH a filler.  That is some fine work there, 1/4" rounds. 

 

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

Is a Throat Strap made with a true "round" better or perceived to be better than one with a lip?

A round made in the traditional way will retain it's shape better, and just look better, IMO.  There are thousands of halters, headstalls, side checks, etc out there that are made with more "modern" methods, and it's 100% for economy and ease of construction.

 

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

It seems the filler piece should also have a round section?  About what diameter?  Perhaps a softened square shaped strip pulled thru a rein rounder? 

I take a light edge off the part of the filler that goes in the bottom of the round.  Take too much and your needle is going to want to push it out, take to little and you'll end up with a round with a bit of a flat side.  Thickness depends on size of the finished round. Best thing you can do is spend some time on mock-ups and practice piece before you touch your project.  I have a box full of practice rounds.  Do NOT pull the filler through the rounder before you sew it in.

 

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

Is the filler skived and sewn into the end returns?

Yes, and the returns skived and blended into the round a couple inches in.  This takes some time to get right, and a lot of trial and error.  It's hard to explain without a picture.  I can try to get some tomorrow if you'd like. 

 

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

-How does one stitch thru the center of the round section and connect everything together...I can see how two rows of stitching (one for each rolled edge) sewn through the center might work? 

-After stitching...is the round portion of the strap finish trimmed to give it more of a true round section shape? 

-Are two rows of stitching acceptable?

Thank you!

You stitch everything together very carefully!  Nothing makes you madder than to go through all the work of fitting up a round, and then find the filler got pushed out while you were sewing.  After stitching, I trim off the filler (which has stuck out past the edges of the round itself), then take a heavy edge off top and bottom.  That's what a rein trimmer hand tool is for.  I'm not sure what you mean about the two rows of stitching, but no that would not be acceptable, at least for me. 

Do you have Stohlman's Hand Sewing book?  I think they explain a little about making the more traditional rounds in there, although it differs a somewhat from how I do it.  I have a "round breaker" attachment for the end of my creaser, which makes fitting up a lot easier and makes for a more consistent round.  However, they are very rare, so it's not ever really fair of me to mention that!  You have to play with the thicknesses of your pieces to see what combination gives you different thicknesses of finished rounds.  The area of the hide makes a difference also.  Too solid and they're likely to split at some point in the process, to raggy or too soft and you'll end up with a round that varies in thickness throughout it's length.  Shoulders will work if there's no wrinkles.

Making traditional rounds is a fairly advanced project.  I had done leatherwork for well over 20 years before I felt like I did a passable job.  And I still don't think I could make a perfect 1/4" round with a filler!

[Silverd]

My oh my.  Your ability to articulate may only be surpassd by your knowledge of the topic.  I'll need to reread your response a few times to take it all in which I will do.  I'm mentally regrouping at this point.  I want to establish a process that achieves results as close as I resonably can come to what you are describing.  

 

More to follow

Don

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

9 hours ago, Silverd said:

 Your ability to articulate may only be surpassd by your knowledge of the topic.

That may be the first time anyone has ever said that to me!  Usually I get a blank look followed by "Um, . . .Huh?"

[Silverd]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:37 AM, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

That may be the first time anyone has ever said that to me!  Usually I get a blank look followed by "Um, . . .Huh?"

I was taught to give credit where credit is due Sir.   Thanks again for your help.  I've made four or five throat straps for practice since your last response using your advise...and had one or two end up looking kinda close.  Do you recommend sewing into a slit and using a Rein Rounder on the finished strap? 

Now I'm having stiching issues with sewing the plain straps (cheek pieces etc) on the  441. I just determined it may associated with the Herman Oak leather.  Combination thread and needle size (277 / #25) is resulting in a nasty scraping sound as the needle travels through the leather.  I thought it was the machine but its the needle!  Top thread is burying its self into the surface...too tight stitches.  Not looking too good on something I thought I had control of.   Should I use thread Lube?  Silicone? 

I think you will like my next set of photos.

Silverd

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, Silverd said:

Do you recommend sewing into a slit and using a Rein Rounder on the finished strap? 

I do sew into a slit on both sides, top and bottom.  I have a machine that I can put a knife in to cut the bottom channel, and a foot that has a knife in it to cut the top channel as I sew.  If hand stitching, I cut the channel with a channeling tool, and then close it after I'm done stitching.  And a rein rounder is almost imperative.  Nothing goes through the rounder until after everything is stitched and the channel smoothed back closed.  Of course the rounder will help with that also.

 

1 hour ago, Silverd said:

Now I'm having stiching issues with sewing the plain straps (cheek pieces etc) on the  441. I just determined it may associated with the Herman Oak leather.  Combination thread and needle size (277 / #25) is resulting in a nasty scraping sound as the needle travels through the leather.  I thought it was the machine but its the needle!  Top thread is burying its self into the surface...too tight stitches.  Not looking too good on something I thought I had control of.   Should I use thread Lube?  Silicone? 

Hermann Oak doesn't usually give too much trouble stitching.  Wickett and Craig leather will squeak like heck sometimes though.  Is the #25 needle a #200 or #230?  I would like to see a picture of the trouble you are having.  It's not often you can tighten tension enough to bury the stitches on a 441, but what can happen is if you sew with too big of a needle and the holes are too close together, the leather can tear through in between the holes. Is the leather cased up when you are sewing?  Sometimes I will sew very slightly cased leather, but too wet and you will have trouble.

I look forward to seeing pictures of the progress on your rounds. 

Oh yeah, I'm a ma'am, not a sir, but that's ok. You had no way of knowing.  And you're welcome.

[Silverd]

Oh my #2 with no disrespect intended Madam. I thank you for clarifying if only for the sake of transparency.  

This what I have so far.  My focus has been to just get one halter made and in the process figure out what else I need...mostly everything at this point!

Silverd 

 

[Silverd]

Terrible terrible terrible sewing.  It's a total fail.  Not cased.  Oiled after stitching. Double  Presser foot set at lightest pressure adjustment.  What a mess!  And I assumed this would be the easy part!.  I've sewn a lot of leather but not with these results.  I'm thinking the tensions are just too high.  What say you re using silcone thread lube?

Silverd

[Silverd]

Back side

[Silverd]

Purchased a rein rounder today.

Will con structure Throat Strap using these instructions including the slits top and bottom.

[Northmount]

16 hours ago, Silverd said:

Double  Presser foot set at lightest pressure adjustment.

Too light a pressure will result in the leather lifting the foot as the needle rises, and skipping stitches.  I see at least one skipped stitch in the photo.

Tom

[Silverd]

Agree.  I had a number of issues going on.  I've been able to sort most of them.  These are my most recent work.  Still a long way to go.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Sorry, I was gone for a day and a half, but I agree with Northmount on the pressure foot tension.  I've got mine screwed down pretty good.  The tradeoff is pressure foot marks, but skirting is tough sewing stuff, and it will lift with the needle if not screwed down tight enough, and cause skipped stitches just as Tom said.  Laps can always be a problem because you are dropping in material thickness as you are sewing, and backstitches are notorious for not pulling the lock in.  The last set of pics looks better.  There are a few bobbles,  but it's better.  Every machine takes getting used to, and learning what you can and can't do, and what you MUST do.  I do not use thread lube on my 441.  I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I have just never reached the point that I thought I needed to.

[Silverd]

 

7 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Sorry, I was gone for a day and a half, but I agree with Northmount on the pressure foot tension.  I've got mine screwed down pretty good.  The tradeoff is pressure foot marks, but skirting is tough sewing stuff, and it will lift with the needle if not screwed down tight enough, and cause skipped stitches just as Tom said.  Laps can always be a problem because you are dropping in material thickness as you are sewing, and backstitches are notorious for not pulling the lock in.  The last set of pics looks better.  There are a few bobbles,  but it's better.  Every machine takes getting used to, and learning what you can and can't do, and what you MUST do.  I do not use thread lube on my 441.  I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I have just never reached the point that I thought I needed to.

I understand.  I normally have better results but I'd made a bunch of changes and it took me a while to get it back on track.  I think the bobbles you reference are related to my skill set...or lack there of more than machine set up...I think!  

So I made another attempt at the dreadd Throat Strap.  Check the pics!

Cut a sewing channel top and bottom side then stitched it with my Claes 30...she is such a joy to use!

Then glued the flap back down over the thread line...Wala!

Edited July 2, 2018 by Silverd
Rotate photo

[Silverd]

Final shot of the rein rounder in action.  NoT completely satisfied with it.  It transfered something grey onto the round section and the grain looks to have separated but its certainly round!  

I still have questions for you Ms.  So....More to follow if you are so willing.  All you have provided has been very helpful.  

Thank you again,

Silverd 

[RockyAussie]

Maybe this is not relevant but I just had to save this picture I found awhile back and sometimes I just gotta go back and look at it. Thought I might just share it with you .

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I am amazed that you got that result by sewing in a slit with a machine.  The Stohlmans hand stitched most everything I believe, and their instructions assume the reader does as well.  With a machine, the top side would not so much be an issue, but the bottom side could be difficult to hit dead center with every stitch.  Harness stitchers of a hundred years ago had a knife attached to the machine (or the needle bar in some cases with a needle and awl stitcher)  to cut a bottom channel, and a knife set into the presser foot to cut the top channel.  Either special throat plates or work guides (or both) were used to keep everything in place while sewing.

The ends are always a challenge.  I need to take a picture to show you what I feel is the best way to blend them back into the round.  There are different ways to finish the end, but the most durable is gong to be where you skive the end of the return to paper and run it an inch or a little more back into the rounded section.  You must also skive the end of the filler. . . it will overlap with the end of the return and you don't want any difference in thickness at this point.  It is a lot of trial and error to get that part right.  I came across an old Arab show bridle  this weekend when I was looking for something else.  It's 35 years old (I know this because I bought it new).  The returns are not spliced into the filler, in fact I don't believe it had a filler.  It was not an inexpensive bridle at the time.  Since it was a show bridle, it received light use, but if it had received more than light, occasional use, it never would have held up at those spots, due to the method of construction. 

The gray transferred to your round from the rounder may be able to be removed with oxalic acid.  Make sure the inside of the holes are highly polished and clean.  Use saddle soap on your round when using the rounder, and the moisture content is critical:  it must be neither too wet nor too dry.  Separation of the grain could be caused by either one.  At this point, I am NOT trying to let you blunder along.  I don't feel like I am being very effective at helping to head you off from possible pitfalls, but so much of what I do is by "feel" gained through experience (both right and wrong) and I don't think about the "whys" and "wherefores".  Nobody works with me in the shop, nor do I do any teaching, so I'm never forced to break down my processes into easily teachable methods.  A true teacher has a talent for doing that.

 

This is an interesting looking arrangement, I'm assuming for a 441 type machine.  It appears to be for more of a purse-handle type of rolled strap, but I'd like to see the other side of it, and the finished product.  Thanks for posting it.

3 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Maybe this is not relevant but I just had to save this picture I found awhile back and sometimes I just gotta go back and look at it. Thought I might just share it with you .

 

[Silverd]

13 minutes ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I am amazed that you got that result by sewing in a slit with a machine.  The Stohlmans hand stitched most everything I believe, and their instructions assume the reader does as well.  With a machine, the top side would not so much be an issue, but the bottom side could be difficult to hit dead center with every stitch.  Harness stitchers of a hundred years ago had a knife attached to the machine (or the needle bar in some cases with a needle and awl stitcher)  to cut a bottom channel, and a knife set into the presser foot to cut the top channel.  Either special throat plates or work guides (or both) were used to keep everything in place while sewing.

The ends are always a challenge.  I need to take a picture to show you what I feel is the best way to blend them back into the round.  There are different ways to finish the end, but the most durable is gong to be where you skive the end of the return to paper and run it an inch or a little more back into the rounded section.  You must also skive the end of the filler. . . it will overlap with the end of the return and you don't want any difference in thickness at this point.  It is a lot of trial and error to get that part right.  I came across an old Arab show bridle  this weekend when I was looking for something else.  It's 35 years old (I know this because I bought it new).  The returns are not spliced into the filler, in fact I don't believe it had a filler.  It was not an inexpensive bridle at the time.  Since it was a show bridle, it received light use, but if it had received more than light, occasional use, it never would have held up at those spots, due to the method of construction. 

The gray transferred to your round from the rounder may be able to be removed with oxalic acid.  Make sure the inside of the holes are highly polished and clean.  Use saddle soap on your round when using the rounder, and the moisture content is critical:  it must be neither too wet nor too dry.  Separation of the grain could be caused by either one.  At this point, I am NOT trying to let you blunder along.  I don't feel like I am being very effective at helping to head you off from possible pitfalls, but so much of what I do is by "feel" gained through experience (both right and wrong) and I don't think about the "whys" and "wherefores".  Nobody works with me in the shop, nor do I do any teaching, so I'm never forced to break down my processes into easily teachable methods.  A true teacher has a talent for doing that.

 

This is an interesting looking arrangement, I'm assuming for a 441 type machine.  It appears to be for more of a purse-handle type of rolled strap, but I'd like to see the other side of it, and the finished product.  Thanks for posting it.

 

I used an edge groover on both top and bottom to mark cut line position down the round section. Then made a slice at abput  30° creating a flap which I pealed back on both sides.  Stitching placed along the base of the flap and had some beginner luck as it would have been easy to miss the channel the bottom.   Used 138 thread for this.  It was actually not that tough or time consuming.  I'll need to focus on the end condition of the filler next.

What is this Teachery Challenged thing you speak of?  Cause I was thinking how I got here was because of your thoughtful insights and gentle guidance.  Just saying!

Silverd