#138 bonded nylon thread and DYx3 #20 needle! Any experience?

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi,

I am gonna switching from #277 to #138 bonded Nylon thread with my Cowboy 4500 and wanted to see if the needles DYx3 size #20 will go with that thread.

Has anyone experience with #138 thread and size #20 needles?

It's for thinner leather sewing like 1.7mm leather 2 or 3 layers. I believe #277 thread which I am using now is to thick and the needle makes to huge holes into the leather when using it on wallets, Holsters, Smartphone cases and the like were I use at max 1.7mm 2 layers leather from cow or pig (which is sometimes very soft).

[RusticLeatherShop]

I finally was told the #20 size needles are NOT for thread #138 but for that thread one Needs #23 needles DYx4 aka 7x4 needles (sharp edge for leather).

As you can see below the #25 needles I have for the #277 thread are a bit an overdoing for Smartphone cases (see Pictures).

Edited August 1, 2018 by RusticLeatherShop

[RusticLeatherShop]

[SolarLeatherMachines]

You need 7x3-23needles.  You can probably get away with 7x3-22 needles.  

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi SolarLeatherMachines,

Please explain whats the difference between 7x3 and 7x4 needles?

Whats the difference between DYx3 and DYx4 needles?

There seems to be lots of confusion which System the CB4500 uses when buying on Amazon or eBay.

I meanwhile returned those #20 needles and ordered #23 7x4 (DYx4) needles from eBay (kinda hard to find). I can just assume the Designation x4 indicated Leather needles (for sharp edges). On the eBay page it specifies expressively they can be used by Cowboy 4500 machine. Those are Organ needles.

Regards Organ brand Little info is to find and I assume it's an Japanese brand (Made in Japan).

Meanwhile I did an MAG Lite LED flashlight pouch with #277 thread and #25 needles which came with the machine and it turned out well IMHO. It's made from full grain pig leather (the leather is painted from the manufacturer). It hangs over the bed post and battery acids can only run to the back cap if the batteries choose to leak (I have lost several such lights due to battery leakeage and other people as well).

Edited August 5, 2018 by RusticLeatherShop

[SolarLeatherMachines]

Needles get complicated QUICK, but here goes:   
The CB4500 AND the CB3200  (and most of the 441 style machines) use a long type of needle system.   The SYSTEM of the needle describes everything about the needle, but does NOT describe the diameter of the penetrating shaft, nor the style of tip.  There are several systems in use, and different manufacturers use different systems.    

Generally speaking the 4500 & 3200 use a needle known as a 7x4, or 7x3, or a 794.  These are SYSTEMS.  (the primary difference between the 7x4 and 7x3 is that usually the 7x3 is for fabric, and 7x4 is a specialty tip, generally a piercing tip for leather).  

The SIZE of the needle is a 2nd number on the package, typically something like "25/200" and describes the diameter of the penetrating shaft, and by inference, the size of hole made (hole size is NOT needle size since leather contracts after the needle passes)  Where 25 is the Singer needle size, and 200 is the metric needle size.  Now, Singer and Metric systems DO NOT perfectly align, and so most needles are made to the metric size, and labeled with the nearest Singer size, rounded up.  However, for the VAST majority of work, the difference between Singer & Metric is of no concern, since it's measured in nanometers.  

Sometimes, the needle systems will have an additional label that describes a tip that is non-standard:  7x4dia is diamond point(4way) and 7x4LR describes a wedgepoint with a rotation to the point.  

Many needle manufacturers advertise needles that are not commonly available unless you're prepared to order 100K of them.  This is for factories who need specialty types of needles.  

As a general rule, and using the true engineering definition of the terms, Japanese needles tend to be tougher and able to take more flex and abuse, where german needles tend to be harder, and thus retain a sharp point longer.   It's really a matter of preference, as both are excellent choices.  Chinese needles are literally worthless, and I throw away thousands each month.  

[RusticLeatherShop]

Thanks SolarLeathermachines for your extensive Explanation.

I ordered These from Ebay : https://www.ebay.com/itm/10ps-Singer-7-class-sewing-needle-7x4-NW-H-DYx4-LEATHER/260797194835?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=560031735805&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

They are indicated to work with CB4500 and indicate they are for leather. These are for thread #138. Organ I have heard is an Japanese Company. Is that right?

I am a Little worried that These needles are a bit hard to find since I found them only on eBay and None on Amazon.com. A Little worry!

Otherwise with limited use one may use a single needle for years.

Can needles be sharpened? I use to sharpen chainsaw chains and can see it's a similar System (or as sharpen drills). Is that a good idea?

I was told by someone that one can not use an x3 designated fabric needle for leather. Is that correct? Since x3 needles are way more common on Amazon/eBay than x4 needles.

[koreric75]

Hmm... You know @SolarLeatherMachines sells needles too... Probably would've cost the same and even for a buck or two more it would've been covered by the time it took to answer your question... Unless you're overseas and shipping was an issue?

Ijs...

[RusticLeatherShop]

For me it's easier to just order from Amazon. I hesitate to leave third Party companies my credit Card Infos. As for now I leave my credit Card info only to Amazon and eBay. No others.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

You can use 7x3 size needles up to size 23 without issue.  Above size 23, things can get problematic, and much depends on the material you're sewing.  

Good Luck!

Edited August 7, 2018 by SolarLeatherMachines