New Thread Company Advice

[ScoobyNewbie]

I am really excited about my spool now! Cigar is going to look very good on cinnamon deer skin gloves! 

Lol! I once had a guy from ... the coast, ask me how much trouble I had with all the stampedes. Another about toilets, and another guy tell my husband that he spent 3 weeks practicing on gravel, because “you don’t have concrete there, right?” Hahahahahaaa!

Hollywood has a lot to answer for. 

[LetterT]

Out of topic-

Hahaha... and what do we in the rest of the work have to think if we looked up to Hollywood - apparently everyone in US either a cop or a bad guy, a few lawyers here and there. Come to think of it, I do not remember I have ever seen a single movie where someone worked with leather. If we ask Hollywood leatherwork is a magical real where all the fancy bags and shoes come from.

[NVLeatherWorx]

On 8/29/2018 at 7:45 PM, bikermutt07 said:

I will add a little for the marketing end....

Once you get your product to market, send some to Nigel at Armitage Leather.

If he likes it, you may have an overnight success.

On another note, I would just like to take a minute to say how happy I am to see @NVLeatherWorx back here on this site. Sir, you and your wisdom have been missed. Thanks for coming back.

Why thank you for the kind words Sir.  I had to take a break from this world as I just saw way too much inexperience trying to shed light on things that were unknown to them, and there is still some of that going around, but I came back to make sure that the knowledge possessed by the experienced craftsmen, and we all know that there are many here that meet that level, doesn't disappear as we eventually dwindle from existence.  The only way that a new craftsman can gain true knowledge is if they are "mentored" by those who have knowledge and experience; this is our own unofficial "Apprenticeship" program if you will and I just felt like I need to get back here for that reason.

I thank you again for the kind words, and I can also tell you that this thread is quite nice so far.  Even though I am a Tiger Thread guy, this is right there with it.  As Gary gets closer to the end of the beginning, I am sure that he will see success here.

[NVLeatherWorx]

On 8/30/2018 at 11:13 AM, chrisash said:

I would suggest the o.4, 0.5 & 0.6 sizes might be a better market to break into rather than the larger sizes

These smaller sizes are not commonly used by most who hand-stitch as they are not quite as hefty as the larger sizes.  I personally use 0.8 for all of my interior lines and the exterior lines are 1.0.  When working with threads of this style, flat versus twisted, the stitch lays down much better and does not look as bulky as some of those do with twisted thread.  The size of the thread also relates directly to the overall longevity of the finished product and the thinner it is, the shorter the longevity is. Now, that isn't saying that there aren't some out there who prefer to work with the thinner threads but when you are working with a manufacturer to provide you with your desired product that you are going to sell to others you have to think about who your primary market is and what they use; also keep in mind that the manufacturer is going to expect certain purchase levels of everything you commit to in order for it to be worth their while to invest in the tooling and production line equipment requirements and if you can't commit to what they may require from you then that is where that desire for that certain something comes to an end.  In the case here the manufacturer knows what the limits of their production line are and also have a vast knowledge in the limitations of the finished products across the various thicknesses and have made a business decision to not enter into certain sizes at this time.  They may change their mind if there is enough evidence of a market need but that is for them to determine.  Gary maintains contact with them very religiously so the door isn't totally locked down, it is just kind of closed with a screen door for now.

[bikermutt07]

@NVLeatherWorx, I couldn't have said it better myself. You, and like you said, many others are treasured assets here. 

As a novice/intermediate I try to field as many newcomer questions as possible. I know others do as well. We feel like it's our responsibility to field the soft pitch questions so you guys can spend time on the harder questions.

But, never for a moment fail to correct me if I am wrong on something. I don't know everything, and I am always ready for correction. My knowledge here is further along than my actual hands on experience. And I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake.

I treat everyday as school in my life. And I have found I can learn something from anyone, no matter their skill level (in any field).

Good Day, Sir.

:End hijack.

[blue duck]

Mr. Gary~ I realize I am late to the party here, but would like to add, if I may.Reading through this entire thread, there are a couple of things that came to mind. They seem to have been addressed, but will reiterate, for what it is worth.

When I first started with leather in the late 70's, there was not much to choose from. Certainly no way to try and find options in the dinky town I was in. So through the years have tried countless threads. I use Ritza at this point in making. Like the strength, wax, etc. as do many others. However, I never really cared for the flat design of it. I have a time trying to keep it from twisting. So thought a 'rounder' type thread would be nice, if possible. (what do I know about making thread?) Reading the review from Mr. Richard, it appears you may have addressed this. 

As for the size,, I usually use .8 or 1.0, but would like the option for .6 on small items. Maybe, if it all works, down the road you could convince them to add a bit smaller one to the lineup. For the next step in your plan, the sewing machine thread, I do use #69, but only for fabric linings when requested. Actual leather is #90 or #138. I hand stitch the thick stuff. And as mentioned, the machine requires a left twist thread. I think most industrial machines have a lube pot, or other lube system, mine does not, don't know if or how that would figure into the thread making.

I don't use a stitching groove, so the thread sits on top of the leather. After hammering down, it doesn't sit proud, but it isn't in the protected groove either. So a thread that can take a bit of abrasion perhaps. I imagine somewhere along the line, that is one of the tests you will run.

The number of colors you are considering is pretty impressive.

Sounds like you are coming along nicely with your project. Look forward to giving it a try. Wish you the best of luck.

[Garyspruill]

5 hours ago, blue duck said:

Mr. Gary~ I realize I am late to the party here, but would like to add, if I may.Reading through this entire thread, there are a couple of things that came to mind. They seem to have been addressed, but will reiterate, for what it is worth.

When I first started with leather in the late 70's, there was not much to choose from. Certainly no way to try and find options in the dinky town I was in. So through the years have tried countless threads. I use Ritza at this point in making. Like the strength, wax, etc. as do many others. However, I never really cared for the flat design of it. I have a time trying to keep it from twisting. So thought a 'rounder' type thread would be nice, if possible. (what do I know about making thread?) Reading the review from Mr. Richard, it appears you may have addressed this. 

As for the size,, I usually use .8 or 1.0, but would like the option for .6 on small items. Maybe, if it all works, down the road you could convince them to add a bit smaller one to the lineup. For the next step in your plan, the sewing machine thread, I do use #69, but only for fabric linings when requested. Actual leather is #90 or #138. I hand stitch the thick stuff. And as mentioned, the machine requires a left twist thread. I think most industrial machines have a lube pot, or other lube system, mine does not, don't know if or how that would figure into the thread making.

I don't use a stitching groove, so the thread sits on top of the leather. After hammering down, it doesn't sit proud, but it isn't in the protected groove either. So a thread that can take a bit of abrasion perhaps. I imagine somewhere along the line, that is one of the tests you will run.

The number of colors you are considering is pretty impressive.

Sounds like you are coming along nicely with your project. Look forward to giving it a try. Wish you the best of luck.

Mr Duck Blue,

Thank you for your response,

Mr Richard (NVLeatherWorx) has given me a different view on the "why" our mfg does not want to make the 0.60, yet after many phone calls, emails and discussions - negations, the best answer I have gotten so far on that size of thread is: let's see how the sales go first, then re-look at it down the road. Hmmmm? Note: I am not a settler nor like being under the gun for future items that I want to offer "now"! I have to either proceed with what I have or start all over with a different mfg to get it and settle for what I am getting, which I do not want to do. I may just have to give in and accept the fact: I have to wait and listen to all the folks tell me they want a 0.60 till I get it. I hate it that way, but may be the only route to go at this time. Once sales are what I think (my opinion) will be, it will not be long until I take a bat and force them to make it for me. 

The sewing machine thread we are looking at: is left twisted (Z) and double bonded and some type of pre-lubed thread. I am still learning all the products they use to get it lubed, but getting there. They offer up to a 500 series in sizing, yet thinking of not going past the 300 series sizing for product marketing purposes.

Duck Blue: I have about 5 folks trying out this thread for me. I do not feel any of them would be upset "if" I offered some to you as well if you wanted to take a test drive with some just to get a different set of eyes on it and see the "if" we have it right or not? I am a guy that loves feedback, both good and bad. If you do want some, send me a PM with your shipping address (include you name) and I will pop three of 4 spools in the mail to you.

I really want this stuff "right"! Not close!

I have (4) spools setting here on my desk right now for anyone that wants to participate. Size: 0.80, 1.0, 1.2 and 1.4.

I bought this really cool wooden spool spinner that grabs the spool, and winds thread on it from the larger bolt. Man that thing make my life much easier :-) it's original use was for yarn.

 

Thanks again,

 

Gary

[Garyspruill]

22 hours ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

These smaller sizes are not commonly used by most who hand-stitch as they are not quite as hefty as the larger sizes.  I personally use 0.8 for all of my interior lines and the exterior lines are 1.0.  When working with threads of this style, flat versus twisted, the stitch lays down much better and does not look as bulky as some of those do with twisted thread.  The size of the thread also relates directly to the overall longevity of the finished product and the thinner it is, the shorter the longevity is. Now, that isn't saying that there aren't some out there who prefer to work with the thinner threads but when you are working with a manufacturer to provide you with your desired product that you are going to sell to others you have to think about who your primary market is and what they use; also keep in mind that the manufacturer is going to expect certain purchase levels of everything you commit to in order for it to be worth their while to invest in the tooling and production line equipment requirements and if you can't commit to what they may require from you then that is where that desire for that certain something comes to an end.  In the case here the manufacturer knows what the limits of their production line are and also have a vast knowledge in the limitations of the finished products across the various thicknesses and have made a business decision to not enter into certain sizes at this time.  They may change their mind if there is enough evidence of a market need but that is for them to determine.  Gary maintains contact with them very religiously so the door isn't totally locked down, it is just kind of closed with a screen door for now.

:-) still trying to meet a marketing side, 

23 hours ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

Why thank you for the kind words Sir.  I had to take a break from this world as I just saw way too much inexperience trying to shed light on things that were unknown to them, and there is still some of that going around, but I came back to make sure that the knowledge possessed by the experienced craftsmen, and we all know that there are many here that meet that level, doesn't disappear as we eventually dwindle from existence.  The only way that a new craftsman can gain true knowledge is if they are "mentored" by those who have knowledge and experience; this is our own unofficial "Apprenticeship" program if you will and I just felt like I need to get back here for that reason.

I thank you again for the kind words, and I can also tell you that this thread is quite nice so far.  Even though I am a Tiger Thread guy, this is right there with it.  As Gary gets closer to the end of the beginning, I am sure that he will see success here.

Thank you:

Gary

[LetterT]

Any news?

[flhx06]

Mr. Gary (Garyspruill),

 Put me down for an update as well please. I just stumbled across this post and am quite intrigued.

Andrew

[NVLeatherWorx]

7 hours ago, LetterT said:

Any news?

The last I spoke with Gary was about a week ago and he was still in the process of getting the original supplier to work out some issues with his desire to include a .6 thread to the line (I have been testing the threads for him so we have been keeping in touch).  He did mention though that they were starting to renegotiate the color scheme and he was not really thrilled with that one.  He also let me know that he has begun conversation with other potential manufacturers (one here in the U.S.) and that he would be getting back on that one.  Kind of been hoping for an update as well but he is putting all of his time into this to get it right before he launches.

[Stetson912]

Very interesting topic. For me, I like .8 and have been content with that. that said I haven't tried heavier but I do like .6 for wallets and smaller items. I think most people will use the .8 and heavier as it seems to be the trend to use thicker threads but I still think the .6 has a place (albiet smaller) for those that like the finer stitching. 

Anything smaller than .6 is I think more of a "specialty" for those that do more luxury items requiring much finer stitching. 

Anywho, I think there already is a good range of sizes and it will only be better if the .6 is added. And I'd love it if there was a US manufacturer of a synthetic bonded thread. Couldn't say I wouldn't switch over. 

[ScoobyNewbie]

The more, the merrier!

[LetterT]

@NVLeatherWorx

Thanks for the update, I was looking forward to having a German supplier. I have some relatives there that I could harass to bring me some spools when they visit.

[NVLeatherWorx]

23 hours ago, Stetson912 said:

Very interesting topic. For me, I like .8 and have been content with that. that said I haven't tried heavier but I do like .6 for wallets and smaller items. I think most people will use the .8 and heavier as it seems to be the trend to use thicker threads but I still think the .6 has a place (albiet smaller) for those that like the finer stitching. 

Anything smaller than .6 is I think more of a "specialty" for those that do more luxury items requiring much finer stitching. 

Anywho, I think there already is a good range of sizes and it will only be better if the .6 is added. And I'd love it if there was a US manufacturer of a synthetic bonded thread. Couldn't say I wouldn't switch over. 

I use 1.0 for all of the main stitching lines (wallet edges, outer edges on handbags, belts, etc.) and the .8 for all of the interior work.  I was using what would equate to a 1.4 when doing saddles but have long since left that part of the trade behind.  The U.S. manufacturer has indicated to Gary that they can make the exact same type of thread as he was getting from the German factory (which, by the way, was one of the former designers behind the Ritza 25 Tiger Thread line; when I tested their product for him I found it to be exactly like Tiger thread aside from the wax content was quite a bit less).

[Stetson912]

7 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

I use 1.0 for all of the main stitching lines (wallet edges, outer edges on handbags, belts, etc.) and the .8 for all of the interior work.

What spi do you stitch at respectively? I know this is all somewhat subjective but I'm open to trying new techniques and such 

That sounds like nice thread already! 

[Garyspruill]

Hey guys,

Sorry for the delay in posting, been out of the country. 

I am still in the battling process with the mfg's. Man are they slow! If a thread company and a snail had a speed race, the snail would win kind of slow.

My largest hangups: 

I want a hand thread that includes a 0.60 and certain colors. They (mfg's) want to start at 0.80 to 1.4, I want 0.60 to 1.2

Next is colors: simple stuff right?? Well, not so. Example: Yellow. Yes, yellow. Mfg wants a huge $$$$ to have this color, even though I have a contract with them to an open 25 color selection on my end. Its all the small stuff we have to go through to get to a synergy relationship. You do this, I do that, we are both happy.

This is pretty much where we are.

Logo's are done.Name of company is now trademarked.  Website is all but done (need to add the colors :-))))). Marketing channels are all but done here in the US. Have set up selling channels in many other countries to include France, Italy, England, Romania and Hungry.  

Had a wax issue with the thread that is now resolved, we went from not enough wax to way too much wax to now, just right (my opinion). That was a tough one.

 

It will not be long, 5 to 6 weeks is a guess.

 

While all this is going on, I am also working on a tool section, machine thread section and a paint section as well.

 

Thanks for the comments

 

Gary Spruill

[koreric75]

27 minutes ago, Garyspruill said:

Hey guys,

Sorry for the delay in posting, been out of the country. 

I am still in the battling process with the mfg's. Man are they slow! If a thread company and a snail had a speed race, the snail would win kind of slow.

My largest hangups: 

I want a hand thread that includes a 0.60 and certain colors. They (mfg's) want to start at 0.80 to 1.4, I want 0.60 to 1.2

Next is colors: simple stuff right?? Well, not so. Example: Yellow. Yes, yellow. Mfg wants a huge $$$$ to have this color, even though I have a contract with them to an open 25 color selection on my end. Its all the small stuff we have to go through to get to a synergy relationship. You do this, I do that, we are both happy.

This is pretty much where we are.

Logo's are done.Name of company is now trademarked.  Website is all but done (need to add the colors :-))))). Marketing channels are all but done here in the US. Have set up selling channels in many other countries to include France, Italy, England, Romania and Hungry.  

Had a wax issue with the thread that is now resolved, we went from not enough wax to way too much wax to now, just right (my opinion). That was a tough one.

 

It will not be long, 5 to 6 weeks is a guess.

 

While all this is going on, I am also working on a tool section, machine thread section and a paint section as well.

 

Thanks for the comments

 

Gary Spruill

well i already know i want some of that havanna cigar color...after seeing sample colors i instantly wanted some, but haven't found an affordable color to match

[ScoobyNewbie]

Oh, my god! The cigar is gorgeous in person! Beautiful hand feel! It has a wonderful shine!

I’m sorry I’m so slow Gary!

[Garyspruill]

3 hours ago, koreric75 said:

well i already know i want some of that havanna cigar color...after seeing sample colors i instantly wanted some, but haven't found an affordable color to match

If you like that cigar color, wait till you see the rest of the colors I am "fighting" for. :-)

Pulling the curtain back just a tad to tease: wait till you see the color: butter toffee or cream or caramel. You see a theme here??

Butter Toffee is in the cream color family with more tan in it. Super rich like a coffee creamer.

Cream is a really smooth true cream color that is super rich, really pops out on a red or buck brown leather

Caramel: OMG. looks just like a cube of caramel candy in a wrapper. I sewed a line with it in some really dark dark brown oil tanned leather and it looked like the inside of a mars bar.

I must have been hungry that day I was looking at colors.:-)

[Garyspruill]

NVLeatherworx,

Thanks for filling in for me while I was gone.

I was out for 3 weeks, Wife and I hit Italy, France, Germany and the UK. Tried to make it to Romania, but planes trains and buses would not work together. I wanted to go there to see this leather factory there, heard they have some great oil tans there with great colors, but just did not come together. Maybe next time.

I think I have a good lead on a great paint company in France we spoke of. They are sending me samples of the primer and paint this month. Primer is white going on, then clear to dry. Then paint on top of it with two sheen's. Satin and High Gloss.

 

Thanks again

Gary

[LetterT]

Gary, thank you for the update, you make it sound super fun and interesting.

[Scoutmom103]

Gary now not only am I excited to see the new thread colors, I want to go buy butter toffee creamer for my coffee.  

 

[Garyspruill]

9 hours ago, Scoutmom103 said:

Gary now not only am I excited to see the new thread colors, I want to go buy butter toffee creamer for my coffee.  

 

Like I said, I must have been hungry

Most of the colors are off the scale, others, ?????

Certain colors that I want, they are fighting with me on. Who would have thought yellow was such a female dog?? I have got to get them to surrender to it, cause in the end, I really want about 3 different yellows total, bright yellow, sunflower yellow and mello yellow. :-) The battle "ain't" over yet.

[Garyspruill]

10 hours ago, LetterT said:

Gary, thank you for the update, you make it sound super fun and interesting.

LetterT

It's just an idea put into action. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone can do it. Where most fail is:not  knowing the market and how much cash to put into an idea before walking away from it before you bankrupt yourself.

I personally have had to walk away many-many  times. 

Yes, it is fun. Take an idea or market, research the heck out of it, find ways to make it better and more accessible to the end user, walk away from the na-sayer's, build it from the ground up and then: use my favorite four letter word: NEXT!

My next project that I am working on: transition plates for cargo trailers. Sounds weird does it not? For those that may own cargo trailers, that gap between the door and the cargo area is never fun. I had an idea to make one with push shocks on it where when you open the door, the plate pushes down onto the door. May be a good idea, may not, may be one that we have to walk away from, who knows?? Keep pushing!

The thread company I have had running around in my head for several years now. Ever since I got into leather working as a hobby. Note: I am not an expert at leather working. I learn every single day something new and love it.  Yet, I am tired of all the junk thread we have to use or pay through the nose for as it passes through US customs and wholesaler's then on to retailer's to the end user's. I just want a great product, that all can afford.