Long shot...Siruba machines?

[dikman]

What a crazy looking stitch!

I think I'll stick to my lockstitch (and saddlestitch).

[trash treasure]

Hi, again -

The spreader hitting the needle thread ( I assume the right needle?) on the back stroke doesn't sound right, and especially plucking it like a guitar string - How tight do you have the needle tensions set? at any rate, I think the spreader should miss the threads, as it moves left to right.

Have you checked the needle bar height? When you buy a machine like this, you have to assume it's passed through a number of hands, some of whom may have poked around in it's innards, with little understanding of what they were doing - You need to check everything...........

The puckering you experienced is most likely a differential issue - Puckering ACROSS the stitch, look at tension, puckering ALONG the stitch, look at differential adjustment - We use the machine mostly for stretch knits (spandex) . Supplex (Taslan), is a nylon woven - Very different fabric, with nowhere near the stretch of spandex - The differential adjustment will be thus be quite different. Experiment, and be willing to adjust.

When I go through the adjustments on an unfamiliar machine, I usually do them in the order they're printed in the manual, unless I know something particular about it.    I'll be honest with you, we paid more than 3 times the price of your Siruba, for the Kansai we have, but the price and condition was not the only reasons why I chose that machine - It was that I was able to get a complete adjusters manual for the exact machine, that was the deciding factor - In fact, I had the manual in hand before we even got the machine - That alone was so important to me, that I would have passed on the Kansai, if I couldn't have that resource........ This should tell you something.

And, yeah, dikman, it's a crazy stitch, and a crazy machine - The engineers that figured out how to do it must also have been crazy, or maybe, they just were driven to promote the production of tight women's leggings, and stretchy swimsuits, for some reason - Go figure

[Sugarkryptonite]

13 hours ago, trash treasure said:

Hi, again -

The spreader hitting the needle thread ( I assume the right needle?) on the back stroke doesn't sound right, and especially plucking it like a guitar string - How tight do you have the needle tensions set? at any rate, I think the spreader should miss the threads, as it moves left to right.

Have you checked the needle bar height? When you buy a machine like this, you have to assume it's passed through a number of hands, some of whom may have poked around in it's innards, with little understanding of what they were doing - You need to check everything...........

The puckering you experienced is most likely a differential issue - Puckering ACROSS the stitch, look at tension, puckering ALONG the stitch, look at differential adjustment - We use the machine mostly for stretch knits (spandex) . Supplex (Taslan), is a nylon woven - Very different fabric, with nowhere near the stretch of spandex - The differential adjustment will be thus be quite different. Experiment, and be willing to adjust.

When I go through the adjustments on an unfamiliar machine, I usually do them in the order they're printed in the manual, unless I know something particular about it.    I'll be honest with you, we paid more than 3 times the price of your Siruba, for the Kansai we have, but the price and condition was not the only reasons why I chose that machine - It was that I was able to get a complete adjusters manual for the exact machine, that was the deciding factor - In fact, I had the manual in hand before we even got the machine - That alone was so important to me, that I would have passed on the Kansai, if I couldn't have that resource........ This should tell you something.

And, yeah, dikman, it's a crazy stitch, and a crazy machine - The engineers that figured out how to do it must also have been crazy, or maybe, they just were driven to promote the production of tight women's leggings, and stretchy swimsuits, for some reason - Go figure

Hi trash,

Before this post, i just want to thank you again for keeping on responding to my thread, you're the only help I have  Even if you don't know the answer, I appreciate it anyway.

I have adjusted the looper take up mechanism, which was set all the way to the bottom, I put it back to the marks they have listed in the manual...

Although maybe I shouldn't have adjusted that? Since it says if using elastic thread, to move it all the way forward. Up to this point I was just using regular overlocker thread, but today I tried the stretch thread that came with the machine (that they were obviously using with it). Anyway the change didn't seem to make any difference.

After looking at it closer, it's hard to say whether or not the spreader is hitting the needle threads. I tried moving the small thread guard back so the threads would be held back away from the spreader even more, and it still made the noise. It sounds like part of it is the spreader thread coming OFF the spreader, and more noise from all the threads being tensioned as the spreader goes back towards the right. Does yours do that?

Yup needle bar heght is good, atleast what from Siruba sent me...7.6mm roughly from tip of left needle to top of the needle plate. 

And you're right, I am using supplex actually for this project, trying to make some leggings actually  I've also tried regular overlocker thread, and now fuzzy or stretch thread in the loopers. The top stitch is almost perfect now, but the backside...wow...such a pain in the ass. There are almost always loops in the needle threads, even if they're sitting flat on the top. I've tried increasing the needle thread tension more and more and more, doesn't seem to help much. How tight are yours exactly? Like pretty damn tight? 

You're right, having the manual is definitely important...

I took some videos of the machine in action, as well as the pinging noise I was talking about. You can clearly see it happens as the spreader thread comes off the spreader itself, as well as when the threads are tensioned...

Note the pictures below are all strips of test lines that I did on a piece of supplex, not all the tensions are the same on them...but one thing is usually in common, the right needle thread (white) is always messed up on the back side...like it doesn't have enough tension...but feeling the tension knobs by hand, it feels exactly the same as the other two needle threads...Changed threads, same deal. On these industrial machines, there's no way to tell how "tight" the tension knob is, or even how many turns it has gone around...how do you do it trash treasure? Just by feel, or another more accurate method? 

It's almost as if the right needle thread is getting pulled too much, causing it to loop, but I checked all the paths it goes through, and it's the same as the other 2 needle threads 

And when I mentioned adjustments in my last post, I was referring to adjustments of the thread tensions, and in what order you do it personally? Do you do loopers first, and then needles? Or needles first, then loopers? etc.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[Wizcrafts]

This machine is fascinating!

[trash treasure]

Fascinating, as Wiz (and Mr Spock) would say .......

It's hard for me to tell anything from your videos - I can't get them to play clearly enough on my computer

OK, I think you may want to check the thread take up guides (second to last of your machine photos) - They need to be set very specifically , and I've found that they make a BIG difference in stitch quality - The Kansai went from randomly skipping stitches, to perfect, just by adjusting them.

One very curious thing - On your machine, the take up guides (the 3 bent rods with holes at top), are set oddly, to my thinking - I have instructions for 2 of these machines, the Kansai, and a Pegasus (somewhat similar), and on both of them, the guides are set exactly OPPOSITE from yours - IE. height progression is from high outer to low inner - Opposite yours.    Is your set up what Siruba calls for, or is that just the way it came?  I attached a photo of the Kansai set up, so you can see what I'm talking about.    I suggest you go through the adjustment for the whole take-up mechanism, and see what's what - And as you might guess, there's also an internal TIMING adjustment for it, as well as the external ones

As to initial tension set up, my wife (Who is the master at this machine - I'm only the mechanic), says that you don't set EITHER upper or lower tension first - Back everything off, and then start tensioning it all up gradually - Tensions should be increased EVENLY, for the most part - If you have to tension one thread much more, then something else is most always wrong - And none of the tensions should need to be really tight - If so, look elsewhere for the problem.

[Sugarkryptonite]

On 5/11/2019 at 8:06 AM, trash treasure said:

Fascinating, as Wiz (and Mr Spock) would say .......

It's hard for me to tell anything from your videos - I can't get them to play clearly enough on my computer

OK, I think you may want to check the thread take up guides (second to last of your machine photos) - They need to be set very specifically , and I've found that they make a BIG difference in stitch quality - The Kansai went from randomly skipping stitches, to perfect, just by adjusting them.

One very curious thing - On your machine, the take up guides (the 3 bent rods with holes at top), are set oddly, to my thinking - I have instructions for 2 of these machines, the Kansai, and a Pegasus (somewhat similar), and on both of them, the guides are set exactly OPPOSITE from yours - IE. height progression is from high outer to low inner - Opposite yours.    Is your set up what Siruba calls for, or is that just the way it came?  I attached a photo of the Kansai set up, so you can see what I'm talking about.    I suggest you go through the adjustment for the whole take-up mechanism, and see what's what - And as you might guess, there's also an internal TIMING adjustment for it, as well as the external ones

As to initial tension set up, my wife (Who is the master at this machine - I'm only the mechanic), says that you don't set EITHER upper or lower tension first - Back everything off, and then start tensioning it all up gradually - Tensions should be increased EVENLY, for the most part - If you have to tension one thread much more, then something else is most always wrong - And none of the tensions should need to be really tight - If so, look elsewhere for the problem.

Hi again trash.

Hope you had a nice weekend.

You're right about the thread guides. I initially had them the way in my pictures, then I switched them to being all even height, and then I switched them to being like yours. To be honest I don't know what way is the right way. For example, Juki MF7900 coverstitch machine has them the same way mine came from the P.O.

Here is also a picture I got from a local classifieds site, where another machine like mine is for sale, as you can see, she has all of them even height (she obviously used the machine, set up with a binder and everything, and says it works perfectly):

So I cannot say for sure which way is right...I know that if I put them the way the machine CAME to me, the right needle thread will slightly touch the take up arm when it is down all the way, which is why I initially changed it. My take up arm is mirrored compared to yours where the threads go through. The pages in the manual I got sent from Siruba didn't have that piece of information...I have asked them if they could send me the full copy of it. No response yet.
 

Stitches are slowly getting better, but I'm still having a hard time, especially getting the left side of the spreader thread to "open up" like you showed in your pictures. I had gotten it to work, and then I changed out some threads and tensions and now I can't get it to look like that anymore. Not sure what the trick is.

I've tried loosening the left needle thread, tightening it, loosening and tightening spread thread until my mind went numb, not sure what I'm doing wrong. Even just now, I had it stitching decently on a piece of navy supplex, and then I switched to a piece of gray, same thickness and all, and the spreader thread was all loose between the middle and right needles...I don't get it. 

The one thing I'm really curious about would be the "steps" for adjusting the thread settings on the machine. At this point I just feel like I'm changing random settings to see what happens, but it has me burning through pieces of material just with all test lines on them. If you could ask your wife I would be curious (and very grateful) to see what she says.

For example, when setting up the machine for a piece of fabric and new threads:

1) What are the "steps" in order? Is it adjust the differential feed first? Then presser foot tension? And leave the thread tensions for last? Or another order of those steps?

2) When adjusting the differential feed, how do you know when it's "right"?

3) When adjusting the presser foot tension, how do you know when it's "right"? I had some supplex pulling a bit to the left when going through the machine, so I tried tightening the presser foot tension and it did seem to help, but still not sure.

Much appreciated again.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[Sugarkryptonite]

Sorry just to add something...can't edit my post...I did manage tonight to get the spacing back as shown above by continuing to increase the spreader tension. If I increased it even one tick too much, though, the right needle thread would start to get pulled almost to the path of the middle needle. Any idea for that as well?

All of the needle thread tensions seem to be okay, in relation to the looper pattern on the back.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

Hi again -

I'm still thinking that it might be something with the take up - That mechanism is very important for stitch formation on these machines.                   There are several external and internal adjustments there - The height and orientation of those guides is just one of them. But I don't think I should give you the Kansai specs for them, unless you totally strike out with Siruba.    Like I said before, it could be very wrong for your machine.

Speaking of that - What's with Siruba? It seems they're just dribbling out partial info, when you beg for it - I mean, if they have the manual for one of their old machines, why don't they just give it (Or sell it) to you complete, and be done?     OTOH, if they don't have it, they should say so.

As far as relying on what someone else's machine has for a take up adjustment, I wouldn't count on that at all, just because they say "It sews fine" - I've bought more than one used machine that was described that way, and found that it was FAR from the truth.     It may be, that with the person's crazy binder set up, that's the only way they could get it to sew at all - You just don't know.

The order to set up the machine for different fabric / thread would be tension first, then maybe foot pressure, if the thickness or texture was much different, and then differential last, after observing the test seams for lengthwise puckering, etc.   You may be jumping around too much, in an effort to get it sewing 

As to it feeding at an angle, it could be a couple things - Needle bar straight?  Foot straight ( These also have a sort of hinged compensating arrangement, and a forward / back adjustment)? Correct foot? There is a special, short, binder foot for these machines, that could have been swapped in at some point.  Feed dogs level and square with the needle plate? I don't think just increasing the foot pressure is necessarily the correct way to fix it, unless it was VERY light to begin with - That always just makes a machine work harder, if it's not really needed.

A last thought - Something like Supplex, being a "flatter" woven, vs. a softer knit, is always going to amplify any stitch irregularity - Just sayin'.

[Sugarkryptonite]

An update to this...thanks for your help trash treasure. The machine has been working decently, but I cannot get a nice thread formation on the top spreader unless I am using wooly nylon type thread that spreads apart easier. If I try using regular overlocker thread like I have in the needles, no luck in getting a nice pattern.

Anyway on a side note, I have finally gotten some adjusting information from a Siruba rep in Miami, who very kindly gave me this information. I had asked many dealers for this information, and they straight up refuse to give it to me. I believe my machine is adjusted pretty well at this point, so for everyone here and anyone in the future, I am attaching it to this post so you can adjust your machine as well. The English writing isn't that great, but you get the idea. I am also attaching an album of pictures with adjusting information for different models (different needle spacing). Sorry, the order of the pictures might be wrong.

Siruba Coverstitch F007/C007:

Adjusting information: 

https://imgur.com/a/C5bnOE3

Powerpoint showing pictures how to adjust each detail (refer back to the above images for exact adjusting numbers depending on your machine): 

https://mega.nz/#!afojAATA!IKxGQ5Q1fjecPlIIbprzyDr5Ez-IKyE68J1udVq6a2w

Edited June 18, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

Hi, again -

The only thing I can think of, in relation to the difference in behavior between the wooly nylon and the regular overlock thread, is the threading path.

On the Kansai (again, not a Siruba), there is an alternate threading path for stretch thread, in 3 different places - I went back and looked at your threading schematic, and it looks like you might have a couple choices on your machine - If you look at the diagram, you see some of the threads are shown with a solid line, AND a dotted one, which (on the Kansai, anyway) indicates an alternate threading for stretch thread.  Have you checked this?