Prepunching Holes?

[robs456]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:01 PM, Tugadude said:

This way the awl expands the leather enough to allow the thread to pass through easily but then it almost immediately begins to close back.  That is why pre-punching with an awl isn't as effective as punching as you go.  With an awl you also have control over the angle, which for beginners can be a struggle.

Yes.
In the A.S. hand sewing book most newbies get he writes "The smallest hole, possible, for needle clearance is most desirable."
I'm guessing this is for practical reasons to make the leather 'grip' the thread to make a real tough stitch and by experimentation I know this creates a more straight stitch line on the back while you still will get the slanted stitches on the front of the piece.
Many amateurs and some pros don't want/need a tough stitch, or don't have the patience to learn to use the awl, so they use stitching chisels that push the diamond shaped prongs all the way through the leather. This will give a nice slanted stitch on both sides which looks good on small leather goods like card holders etc. Hammering the stitch line after will close the leather well enough for it to grip the thread as well.

 

On 5/31/2019 at 5:03 PM, fredk said:

None, but the worker thinks he/she is doing it the 'proper' way, the 'only' way

There's no 'only' way, but different ways are good for different things...

[Tugadude]

I think there needs to be some clarification.  An awl penetrates through the leather, but the actual hole it creates is smaller than the width of the awl.  When it is pressed through the leather, only the tip cuts, then the awl tapers out but it is not sharp, it doesn't cut.  It only EXPANDS the hole.  When it is removed and the thread is inserted, it then begins closing up.  Hammering afterwards also causes the hole to close even more.

If you cut the leather, the cut stays pretty much the same size as the initial cut.  Leather can shrink, but it doesn't "self-heal".  A hole can shrink in certain circumstances, but I think if you use a drill press or sewing machine to make holes they stay the same as the diameter of whatever made the hole.  An awl in a drill press is similar to an awl in hand and I have to believe that the hole will close up some if it is punched and left alone for awhile.  It is just the way it is.

Maybe it isn't noticeable because the awl is large to begin with and you have not difficulty inserting the thread.

In the end, if it works for you, keep doing what you do.  If not, try the methods suggested here and find the one that does.

[mikesc]

but I think if you use a drill press or sewing machine to make holes they stay the same as the diameter of whatever made the hole.

Why would that be the case ?..The tip of a leather needle cuts, as does the tip of an awl, but the rest of the leather needle is smooth, and forces the hole apart, as does the rest of an awl blade.So..logically, the holes made by both would close up the same way..

Example..if I take your phrase

When it is pressed through the leather, only the tip cuts, then the awl tapers out but it is not sharp, it doesn't cut. It only EXPANDS the hole

and substitute the word "needle" for the word "awl" like so..
"When it is pressed through the leather, only the tip cuts, then the needle tapers out but it is not sharp, it doesn't cut. It only EXPANDS the hole"

That description of the action fits precisely that of a needle, and of an awl..

If a "needle" ( machine ) did not allow the hole to close up again..then neither would using a "needle" ( in hand sewing ) after the initial piercing with an awl.

[Tugadude]

I'm going to stop trying to be helpful around here.  

[Tugadude]

There is a difference between quibbling and sincere interest.  Some folks like to sit back and interject when they see what they believe to be an error.  

In recent weeks I have seen posts that I feel are really opinionated and unnecessary.  

I have never poked the tiger, but rather tried to add clarity.  I suppose my attempt muddied the waters in the eyes of some.

Time to go silent for awhile and take a break.  I might come back, might not.  I might fade away as many have done here.  A lot of once great voices on this forum have run off.  Just look at some of the old threads.

To those who are active here and supportive, I say good luck and it has been fun.  

Maybe our paths will cross again!

Ray

[mikesc]

Woah..Ray..why take offence..all I did was say that logically piercing with a needle would be the same as piercing with an awl..because they are both only pointed at the ends, the rest of the shaft of each of them spreads the hole without cutting it..so your description of why an awl is better than a needle, doesn't make it "better", because that accurate description of what happens, also fits what happens with a needle..

You said up there "I think there needs to be some clarification."..but if you thought about it ..your "reason" fit both pre-piercing with an awl..and pre-piercing with a needle ( be it in a chuck or a machine ) ..especially as in both cases, after the pre-piercing, you then push a needle and thread through the holes that you made..

For me you just had a "doh" moment ( maybe posting tired ? ) ..like we all do..:)

I read what you wrote, thought about it..and thought "wait a minute"..the two things are doing the same to the leather...and said so..it was not "opinionated"* any more than was your " clarification", no offence was intended.

We all have our own "opinions"..but surely logic and experience count more than just "this is my opinion"..otherwise we'd be saying things like "in my opinion, you can make good solid working horse saddles from lambskin"..which wouldn't be true, nor would it be logical..and experience would prove that you can't.

What you wrote wasn't what I "believe to be an error"..it was an error( we all make them ) ..it makes no sense..and experience proves it..why take it personally..Your advice is normally spot on, that one re "holes" surprised me.. :)

Edited June 3, 2019 by mikesc

[robs456]

7 hours ago, Tugadude said:

A hole can shrink in certain circumstances, but I think if you use a drill press or sewing machine to make holes they stay the same as the diameter of whatever made the hole.  An awl in a drill press is similar to an awl in hand

I read this to mean 'if you drill holes' and in that case it is totally right as the drill removes material. But then needles and awls get into the mix...

 

6 hours ago, mikesc said:

The tip of a leather needle cuts, as does the tip of an awl, but the rest of the leather needle is smooth, and forces the hole apart, as does the rest of an awl blade.So..logically, the holes made by both would close up the same way..

Yes, going back to what Stohlman said ("The smallest hole, possible, for needle clearance is most desirable.") he means NOT to push the needle or awl all the way through as it will leave too big a hole to grip the thread. If you need the strength don't shove your awl all the way, just the tip will do. And never cross awls...

 

[mikesc]

But Rob..sewing machines don't drill holes.the needle does not rotate, it just goes up and down, piercing , like an awl does..except that an awl does it from side to side ....and the drill press is used just to hold the awl..and press..up and down..not to drill..

No one mentioned drilling..just using the drill press or the sewing machine, to hold something to make the holes with..in one case an awl..in another a needle..both of which are only "cutting" at their points..and both where they the get wider..are smooth, so after the initial "cut" they would both only spread the leather, just like hand sewing with an awl..

An arbour / arbor press ( if you could fit an awl or a needle into it ) would do just the same..

If you have to only push the awl in enough for needle clearance..then using a needle, in a machine..would seem to be ideal..as long as the needle that you used to pierce was not waaaay larger than the needle that you were threading..and an awl gets no larger when used in a drill press than it does when used in your hand..

Pliers, stitching irons, or punches on the other hand..do go "right through"..

I agree with Fred..

Btw..Despite what many people think ..LVMH and Hermes do use a lot of sewing machines in what they make..I have seen work being done in their ateliers..some is hand sewn, but not nearly as much as they are happy for you to believe, there is tradition, and there is "woo"..I also have video recordings from broadcasts on French TV filmed inside their ateliers ..With their permission..showing them using far more machine work in assembly of their bags etc than people believe..They don't try to mislead anyone..But a lot of people read that the saddles are majority hand sewn, and some of the parts of some of the bags..and then extrapolate to, "all of it is"..Nothing could be farther from the truth..

I've thought in the past about posting those videos, but they are copyright to the French TV companies and to the LVMH and Hermes companies..so I have not..nor will I without their permission..One of them shows a member here, meeting an independent French saddle maker ( no connection with LVMH or Hermes ) ..in the USA..
I'll have to look again at the videos to get the name of the member here..

ps..At the risk of being "heretical"..Stohlman was very very good, but people have been doing leather work for centuries before him, again he was very very good, but his is not the only way..nor is his "word" on techniques, the only word on techniques..

I was reading a book earlier today that pre-dates him by nearly half a century, and covers almost all of what people tend to attribute to him..he didn't claim to be the last word, nor to have invented most techniques, but many seem to think he did both invent most of them, and to be the definitive word..

Kind of like "Sheridan", which is based very very heavily on the designs and patterns and techniques from Mexico and from Spain and from North Africa, and from Persia ( modern name Iran ) ..the influences from the Arab countries is why there are no people or animals etc in "Sheridan", because the principal religion from the countries where the "style" originated from, forbids depicting people, animals or other "animate" beings..But does not forbid depicting Plants..Which is what "Sheridan" depicts..It isn't "Western"..it is "non figurative leather decoration" based upon traditional Moorish / Persian designs and decorations..and some of theirs, came from the Greeks..either via Persia..or ..from Persia to Greece..Lot of "similar" work In some Mandalas from Asia too..

Edited June 3, 2019 by mikesc

[robs456]

28 minutes ago, mikesc said:

But Rob..sewing machines don't drill holes.the needle does not rotate, it just goes up and down, piercing , like an awl does..except that an awl does it from side to side ....and the drill press is used just to hold the awl..and press..up and down..not to drill..

No one mentioned drilling..just using the drill press or the sewing machine, to hold something to make the holes with..in one case an awl..in another a needle..both of which are only "cutting" at their points..and both where they the get wider..are smooth, so after the initial "cut" they would both only spread the leather, just like hand sewing with an awl..

Gaah! I say again: I took it to mean that he mixed up drilling with a drill press, using a sewing machine, and using a drill press equipped with an awl. Maybe I was wrong about him referring to drilling.
The rest of the mechanics I'm very familiar with.
 

[mikesc]

cheifjason did indeed mention "drill press" and "drilling"..the latter word would indeed normally mean that he made his awl "rotate"..which would be what you were referring to..and as a "technique" would be weird, because you don't need to rotate an awl to make it make a hole..But maybe that was a "slip of his keyboard"..or maybe he does rotate the awl with the drill ?

The rest of the mechanics I'm very familiar with.

:)) Yes, we ( members ) all know the "mechanics"..But I'm also thinking of those reading / lurking ( now and / or in the future ) who are not / may not be aware of the "mechanics"..So..when posting..I tend to "spell it out"..for the "invisible audience", who come here because what to us is now ( because we have learned and gained experience ) "second nature"..may well be to them..entirely new..

Edited June 3, 2019 by mikesc