birch tar [WTS] Birch Tar, Oil, and Pitch

[Otzi]

@mikesc I finally received my order and I can say 100% without a doubt this is not 100% birch tar oil. Just by smelling it I know something is off. If you spent any time on a farm or ranch and have treated stock for skin or hoof afflictions you would pickup the smell right away.

It definitely has been added to / cut with something. I hope to have time in the next week to refine it and see how much tar it yields, the consistency is a bit off as well. It is past the point of being watery, it is more like a high proof alcohol that is very cold when you pour it.

I contacted this seller when ordering asking specifically it it was pure and they said it was, considering this seller is selling FOR Farmaks which is one of the largest Birch companies in Russia.....

Edited September 29, 2019 by Otzi

[mikesc]

Bear in mind that you are selling Birch Tar ( which is reduced down from Birch Tar Oil ), and they are selling Birch Tar Oil*.
I've never tried reducing Birch Tar Oil down to Birch Tar ( I do know the smell, our family had small farm in Eire, we , and our farming neighbours used it and Coal Tar Oil a great deal ) ..But based on what one could call the "Tar Yield" of many oils ( Yes I know , they vary, but..) I'd be surprised if 100 ccs of Birch Tar Oil reduced down to more than 1cc or Tar..and probably less**..also depends on how you are doing the reducing.

As to what you think they may have "added"..again only someone in possession of a lab analysis of it, is in a position to know if they did, or not..anything else, is speculation.

If Farmaks have dealer in the USA..they will have to have produced an MSDS..IF they have a dealer in Canada..they would have to have produced the equivalent, and likewise if they have a dealer in the EU ..

The customs declaration ( to allow it to be imported into Canada by yourself ) should say what it is.

*In other words, you are selling a "concentrate", they are selling the raw material from which that concentrate is made.

** In order for it to "pour"..It could not be "tar" ( which is a "catch all" word for highly viscous derivatives of various oils ) "solids" in oil..the % of "solid" to oil varies..Viscosity can be measured..What the "solid" consists of can be analysed,as can what the oil consists of..In order to derive oils from organic substances such as Birch Bark, the Birch Bark can either be heated in water, or have steam and sometimes a volatile solvent ( such as alcohol ) passed through a container of chipped and shredded bark ( usually under some pressure ) and the vapours captured and condensed, sometimes the solvent might be recovered for reuse..this would be distillation, in which case there will be some traces of water in the distillate, and some traces of whatever the solvent was...The distillate can be further condensed ( or reduced ) driving off the oil and the traces of water and solvent, to give a "tar"..

Or..

The Birch Bark can be chipped , shredded and crushed and then pressed, this is closer to how cold pressed olive oil is made.But I'd be very surprised ( nay, amazed ) if this method was used as Birch Bark is not known for it's natural oilyness..at least not to the touch..cold pressing would not be very practical, nor would it have developed as an artisanal technique in the past..

Edited September 29, 2019 by mikesc

[YinTx]

24 minutes ago, mikesc said:

100 ccs of Birch Tar Oil reduced down to more than 1cc or Tar

This in itself would seem to result in a significant price difference.  Would we then have to cut the tar to enable application to leather?  Tar might make a bit of a mess of things I suppose...but mixed with alcohol or beeswax or oil might make things interesting... 

Does the manner in which the tar is produced have a significant impact on the quality of the tar as it pertains to leather treatment?  as in distillation process versus cooked over a fire?

YinTx

[mikesc]

Tars are water repellent ( and if you coat the surface of something with tar, you'll make that surface water repellent ) because they are in effect condensed or partially solidified oils, and oil and water do not mix.
To coat a surface with tar, you have to add it mechanically , by rubbing or smearing, or you'd have to reduce it's viscosity by adding something to it, like oil..in which case , why reduce the oil to it's tar in the first place ?..You could mix in beeswax at the time of adding the oil..Adding alcohol would make the tar "thinner", but alcohol is hygroscopic , so you'd be introducing water ( albeit in small quantities over time )..But the, even though oils will not dissolve in water , they have some water in them, and some other volatiles, which are what are driven off when the oils are reduced to their tars..Seems a lot of work to get back to where you began.

Non oil tanned leather used to be waterproofed by painting oil on to it ( sometimes the oil was warmed to make the oil thinner and penetrate the leather fibres better ), or rubbing the oil in to the leather..Eventually over time, the acids in the oil attacks the leather, oiled boots will last many years though..and they will be waterproof, if the oil is reapplied..It has to be ( reasons are many ) partially because oil oxidises, and in doing so is not as water repellent, the change to the oil renders some of them slightly hygroscopic..A lot of the water repellent properties of things is down to their physical surface construction , sometimes on a microscopic level, water has a tendency to "bead" and run off some textures and surfaces more easily than others which the structure of makes water act "wetter" ( flow / penetrate into the surface ) ..Waxing and then heating works better than waxing cold, because the wax flows into the fibres and the "gaps" thus plugging them better..

Water runs off bird's feathers well, due to their structure, ( the structure of all birds feathers is not identical, but is similar ) but water birds oil their feathers regularly.

The various products and mixtures and brand names that people discuss to waterproof their leather ?..just oil it regularly, adding a little alcohol or beeswax won't hurt ( it will "spread" easier and penetrate better if used cold ) but warm oil ( around 45°C ) painted on, or rubbed in works..as will rubbing in warmed tallow or rendered animal fats..redo regularly..

Distilled or over a fire ? ..What does "over a fire" mean..?

Edited September 30, 2019 by mikesc

[YinTx]

3 hours ago, mikesc said:

Distilled or over a fire ? ..What does "over a fire" mean..?

As I was typing it, the terminology evaded me.  Dry distillation.  For birch oil, as I understood it, traditionally done in a container without oxygen, and a fire set under/over/ or around the container of birch bark.  

As opposed to the steam distillation processes you were referring to.

YinTx

[mikesc]

Ah.Now I see what you meant :)
"As I was typing it, the terminology evaded me. Dry distillation. For birch oil, as I understood it, traditionally done in a container without oxygen, and a fire set under/over/ or around the container of birch bark."
But, I really cannot see Russian peasants , nor anyone before say the middle of the 19 century, having the ability to either selectively remove the oxygen from the air that would be in the container with the birch bark ( even if the birch bark was extremely compressed, there would still be air in there ) nor be able to create a total vacuum around the birch bark..It is much more likely that they are talking about heating the bark in an enclosed vessel without additional air, an recovering the vapours that are given off and then condensing the vapour down to form a more viscous liquid than one would get if solvents ( water or otherwise were added ) ..But the initial bark will contain a very high percentage of water ( could be as high as 90% ) and so it is in reality "self steaming" the oils* out, which are then picked up in that water vapour and condensed to form a more viscous oil than one would get if the bark was soaked in water with additional solvents.

Realistically the only difference between "dry distillation" ( which isn't "dry", due to the water already present as humidity in the bark( or whatever ) and the various oils in there ) and what could be called "classical" distillation, would be that in the latter the initial water content in the mix is higher, and the solvents ( if any are added ) are not those present in the bark to begin with..with the exception of the molecules necessary to form natural alcohols, such as that known as "wood alcohol"..which would act as a solvent for any oils present..So..You'd get a more viscous distillate from the "dry" method , than from the "classic" method..the distillate themselves would be chemically very similar if no external solvent was added in either case ..just one would contain more water, which could be evaporated off, either in air or with the addition of heat..

But again..only laboratory analysis would be able to show if this were the case, and also what the difference was as regards the percentage of water.

*The reason that I put oils and not oil is that despite referring to Birch Bark oil..there will be many different "oils" in there..We call the oil that we get from olives "olive oil" but in fact there are oils dissolved in oils in olive oil, and in all others..The definition of "oil" is complex , both chemically and physically..and there are many "oils"..water is far simpler :) H2O..Further the organic solids in each tar and oil will vary from location to location, and from time of year etc..in the same way as wine does..even from one side of the slope to another in the vineyard..Birch Bark oil would exhibit just the same "terroir" effects..analysis would able to tell you ( providing there were enough reference samples ) where it came from..and when.**

*Aside..the "when" is important..most people think of C14 as being the way that things are dated..however, when you are involved in dating art objects ( paintings and items made with organic materials..one of my "hats" is that of art restorer, degree etc ) one of the easiest ways** to spot forgeries or fakes, is that items that were made, or supposedly made or created before the explosion of the first atomic weapons ( by this I mean including the above ground tests ) cannot contain isotopes of elements that require an atomic explosion in order for such isotopes to be present..If such isotopes are present, the item is from after those initial atomic tests..All growing things stop absorbing isotopes when they are no longer alive..So using wood cut after the tests to make a piece of furniture that is supposedly from the time before the tests, or painting a picture supposedly from before the tests, on a panel or a canvas that is made from after the tests, or using paint that is made from organic materials that date to after the tests in something that purports to date from before them ;) Many forgers and fakers do not realise this..It is as obvious as the wrist watch on the wrist of the charioteer in Ben Hur, or con trails in the sky of a western set in the 19th century..It would apply also to a leather item..if it was alive and died before the testes, it cannot contain traces of things that did not exist "in nature" on this planet, until after them .

** There are obviously many other ways, some far even easier than this one..Some forgers know some of them, many don't...Many major museum curators, and auction house "experts" ( including those in the big two) know less than many forgers..

Edited September 30, 2019 by mikesc

[Otzi]

15 hours ago, mikesc said:

Bear in mind that you are selling Birch Tar ( which is reduced down from Birch Tar Oil ), and they are selling Birch Tar Oil*.
I've never tried reducing Birch Tar Oil down to Birch Tar ( I do know the smell, our family had small farm in Eire, we , and our farming neighbours used it and Coal Tar Oil a great deal ) ..But based on what one could call the "Tar Yield" of many oils ( Yes I know , they vary, but..) I'd be surprised if 100 ccs of Birch Tar Oil reduced down to more than 1cc or Tar..and probably less**..also depends on how you are doing the reducing.

As to what you think they may have "added"..again only someone in possession of a lab analysis of it, is in a position to know if they did, or not..anything else, is speculation.

If Farmaks have dealer in the USA..they will have to have produced an MSDS..IF they have a dealer in Canada..they would have to have produced the equivalent, and likewise if they have a dealer in the EU ..

The customs declaration ( to allow it to be imported into Canada by yourself ) should say what it is.

*In other words, you are selling a "concentrate", they are selling the raw material from which that concentrate is made.

** In order for it to "pour"..It could not be "tar" ( which is a "catch all" word for highly viscous derivatives of various oils ) "solids" in oil..the % of "solid" to oil varies..Viscosity can be measured..What the "solid" consists of can be analysed,as can what the oil consists of..In order to derive oils from organic substances such as Birch Bark, the Birch Bark can either be heated in water, or have steam and sometimes a volatile solvent ( such as alcohol ) passed through a container of chipped and shredded bark ( usually under some pressure ) and the vapours captured and condensed, sometimes the solvent might be recovered for reuse..this would be distillation, in which case there will be some traces of water in the distillate, and some traces of whatever the solvent was...The distillate can be further condensed ( or reduced ) driving off the oil and the traces of water and solvent, to give a "tar"..

Or..

The Birch Bark can be chipped , shredded and crushed and then pressed, this is closer to how cold pressed olive oil is made.But I'd be very surprised ( nay, amazed ) if this method was used as Birch Bark is not known for it's natural oilyness..at least not to the touch..cold pressing would not be very practical, nor would it have developed as an artisanal technique in the past..

 

Generally the birch tar oil reduces a fair bit but not quite that much. Out of 3 ounces of oil I would expect to get 1.5 to 2 ounce of tar. I don't know what they added, but I know they added something and it is not pure birch tar as claimed, smells something like Camphor.

They provided nothing  no MSDS, the oil came direct from Russia, customs did not provide any additional information on it. They are selling a modified raw product dishonestly would be how I put it. I sell the oil, tar, and also pitch

From what I have found it seems Russia both old and new use dry distill method same as I do.

 

The tar if slightly warmed does not need a carrier and adding a carrier such as beeswax defeats one of the best things about the tar which is its ability to breathe while still repelling the water.

 

Bottom line here is that this Russian product is not pure birch tar oil as suspected, what they have added to it is unknown at this time. Smells a bit like Camfor. If it seems to good to be true it usually is.

Who knows maybe I will send some for an analysis at some point.

[Matt S]

Forgive me not reading the entire thread, but are you absolutely tied to the birch oil? I use a 50-50 mixture of Stockholm (pine) tar and Fiebings Aussie (a dubbin with lanolin) on my workboots. Stockholm/pine tar has many of the same attributes as birch but far easier to get hold of. Most agricultural factors, saddlers and feed stores stock it, both as a tar and a liquid. Not entirely sure what the chemical difference is between the two -- could be that the latter is tar + oil, or simply a lighter range of distillation fractions.

[mikesc]

" customs did not provide any additional information on it"
!! What on earth are Canadian customs doing letting " mystery productX " in a bottle be imported without a formal customs declaration ( these are made by the sender, not customs ) accompanying it as to what is in it..For all they knew it could have been H in a liquid base..or part A of a Binary bang compound..or a Bio weapon.. or... or...

Yeah I know , the last thing you need is to go telling Canadian customs that they are not doing their jobs correctly..but..

Matt ..Otzi is selling his Birch Bark products..he doesn't "need them"..

Otzi.. surely you mean "Birch Bark Oil", and not "birch tar oil"... the "tar" is made from the oil*, not the other way around..

Yours would "spread" because it still has some liquid oil in it, you haven't reduced it right down from the oil..if you did, it would be more like a resin. and you'd get a far smaller yield than you do per 100cc..Btw..it is much easier to understand if one uses cc for liquids than if one uses ozs..even if you mean fluid ounces ? The fluid ounce varies according to which country you are in ..fluid ounce and even varies with what substance / liquid you are measuring ..an ounce of mercury does not occupy the same volume as an ounce of water..nor does an ounce of oil..and all oils do not occupy equal volumes when they weigh 1 ounce..These are just some of the very good reasons why the rest of the world uses cc as the measurement of volume.

*The "oil" with "bits of charred and oxidised stuff in" is probably closer. "oil" is probably a misnomer in itself.

Edited September 30, 2019 by mikesc
typo, clarity

[Matt S]

4 hours ago, mikesc said:

[snip]Matt ..Otzi is selling his Birch Bark products..he doesn't "need them"..[/snip]

I've only skimmed the thread, but he has discussed at length his difficulties acquiring birch oil/tar and its semi-mysterious composition. If it's functionally equivalent, buying a 1lb can of pine tar from the local farm supply store will not only be cheaper and faster than having birch tar/oil shipped from Russia, but if he's selling his product will give him a big step towards being legitimate. I've been using the stuff on leather and wood for years. It's bloody good.

Oh and "Russian" leather (or the modern reproduction thereof) is excellent. I've got about 50Kg sitting in storage. I visited the only tannery making it still and was lucky enough to see one of the curriers treating a few hides.