Help! Made a Flat Back holster sheath for an odd shaped pocket knife: How to stitch across bottom?

[YinTx]

As the title says, I made a Flat Back holster sheath for an odd shaped pocket knife.   I am wondering if it is possible to stitch across the bottom?  I've seen magazine holsters that manage it, but I am having a hard time seeing how to stitch this together without getting a ball of leather in the bottom, or having the leather too long on the opposite side you start at, since the top piece is by design larger than the bottom piece.  Is it wet molded first?  Or can it be stitched together before wet molding?  Here is the prototype I made, you can see the bottom is open, which I don't want.  Also, I managed to ruin the stitching when I put the clear lac on after wards:  smeared the black dye onto it.  Can it be finished before wet molding to avoid this issue?  Or will that prevent the leather from wetting and drying out properly?  These photos are before the clear lac wreck.

YinTx

 

 

[fredk]

I suggest you wet mould the top piece first. Use a piece of leather much longer than it needs to be so you can pull the end down real tight. I find if the leather is cut too close to where it should end I get wrinkles, but if I take it well beyond that point I can pull it tighter.

[wizard of tragacanth]

Did you vigorously buff the leather after dyeing to get all of the residue off? That could be a problem if you didn't. 

For the next iteration, instead of using two pieces of leather, use one long piece and fold it under the knife, then mold and stitch it exactly as you have done here, then trim off the excess.

Haven't done this myself but it seems like it would work.

nick

 

[YinTx]

57 minutes ago, fredk said:

I suggest you wet mould the top piece first. Use a piece of leather much longer than it needs to be so you can pull the end down real tight. I find if the leather is cut too close to where it should end I get wrinkles, but if I take it well beyond that point I can pull it tighter.

I'm thinking this is probably the way, but was hoping not.

6 minutes ago, wizard of tragacanth said:

Did you vigorously buff the leather after dyeing to get all of the residue off? That could be a problem if you didn't. 

 

Yeah, I did, several times.  And it was Pro dye too.  But clear lac can lift a lot of things, have to be careful with it I suppose.  If I sprayed it on would not be an issue.  Wonder if it degrades the thread?

 

8 minutes ago, wizard of tragacanth said:

use one long piece and fold it under the knife,

That's a different idea, could work.

YinTx

[RockyAussie]

@YinTx The best thing I can think to say is that you should not try and sew the pieces together untill you can have front and back pieces meeting together without much difference in length, meaning the top should not be hardly any wider than the bottom at this area. It (the top) needs to be wet moulded and dried to shape if going for the flat back look or the pattern would need to go more 50/50 at that area and wet mould the lot, putting in the knife after the stitching. On one off type pieces a trick I worked out years ago is to cut myself a strip of hard veg about 3/4" wide and quite thick depending on the job. From there after the leather is wetted and ready to mould (and initially over size by 3/8 to 1/2") staple down the base to hold position well and then I  staple the thick welt down over and around the top piece keeping the staples about 1/4" out. This allows after the piece is dry for me to trim away the excess and loose the staple holes at the same time. This saves making up a full blown wooden or plastic mould and pressing technique. I do have a large board that is put together with the end grain up and it works beautifully for this type of work described. This knife sheath along with most of the ones I have made use this technique. I believe you could do this on the bottom surround edge if you were looking to maximise the flat back look. Best of luck.

Brain

[Dwight]

The worst thing you will wind up with is a good lesson, . . . so go for it.

I'd wet the bottom half of that until it was some kind of soaked, . . . then take my thumbs and flatten out the outside piece.  It will take a while to get it "flat" flat, . . . but if you mess with it a bit it will get to where you can hand sew it.

Then you finish getting the rest of it wet, . . . allow the whole thing to dry down to a good "case" and re-do the molding.  Then put it in front of a heater, . . . or in a cool oven, . . . keep it below 140 degrees, . . . the molding should take, . . . and you will have the sheath you wanted.

May God bless,

Dwight

[YinTx]

1 minute ago, Dwight said:

The worst thing you will wind up with is a good lesson, . . . so go for it.

 

Don't tell anyone, but this is the fastest I have ever made something.  Took me all of about 2 hours from blank paper to waiting for the top coat to dry.  Used some very old very raggedy Tandy veg tan leather, even managed to stitch it on a machine without screwing that up royally.  So it is already just a good lesson.  Unfortunately, before I asked for advice and thought about how gun magazine holsters are made, I reworked the shape of the top, and tooled it out ready to go for version 2.  That one will be a more painful lesson to learn!  But I'll finish it out anyhow just to see how the design change affected it.

I did have it wet already, and worked it over a lot trying to get a stitchable lay, but the leather is like 10 oz, so it was no way going to co-operate.  Version 3 should come out a bit better, we'll see.  As they say, fail - and fail fast, so you can have success sooner!

@RockyAussie Brian, thank you for that input.  I'll give it a go next time around, we'll see how well I can emulate your fantastic work!  

I had originally started with a flat pancake design, and wanted it to be more of a flat back design, then as I went along, I decided I wanted a closed bottom.  Guess I should decide these things before I cut up leather, but hey, progressive engineering works too!

YinTx

[RockyAussie]

so so true.

[JLSleather]

I certainly do recommend Andrew's short, concise video about making holster patterns.  But this is the one thing he actually did leave out of that, and it's actually pretty important even if you're not enclosing the bottom of the holster.

But I'll let Sam fill in those blanks if he cares to -- too many words for my existing available time.  For now, lemme say that this can be done for small items before or after stitching.  Small, I mean relatively thin - this knife would qualify, a Glock 21 prolly not.

And that's a GOOD TIP from @RockyAussie ... (refreshing to see on this site).... veg tan CLAMP -- I like it.

[chiefjason]

I'm as sold as anyone on flat back holsters of all types.

Except in this case.  I make these and my mag holders 50/50.  Cut, glue, stitch, then shove the object in and wet mold it.  I just got frustrated trying to mold the top piece all the way down on the toe.  That gets pretty tough with the 8 0z leather I normally use.  And I seemed to need more length than just doing it the 50/50 way.  

When I do get in a position where I need to close a toe on a flat back I cut that area extra long so I can work it easier.  And so I can line it up with the back when it comes time to glue.  A little extra wiggle room when glueing is never a bad thing.  

[YinTx]

Thank you all so much for the advice and tips.  I will apply them to Version 3 when I get to it, which for me may be months.  Meanwhile, since I had already gotten Version 2 so far along, I finished it up last night.  The toe looks prettier at least, but still not what I had in mind, and as usual, I botched the stitching with the machine.  One day I'll learn that thing well enough to sew something worth selling on it.  Second version used some Wickett and Craig belly leather.

Big lesson here for me is don't tool Version 2 on a progressive design!  Will be a lot of hours in the waste bin later!

YinTx

On the hip:

View of funky shaped knife: over 1" thick, lots of curves.

Side by side with version 1:

Edited October 9, 2019 by YinTx

[wizard of tragacanth]

Looks good Yin. I love the tooling, though I know nothing about tooling... never done it.

There is something glaringly missing though... your maker's mark!

Try to get that on V3, okay?

nick

[YinTx]

Ok, version 3 done.  This is a prototype for a customer that has a rather large folder, and a thick gun belt so we'll see if everything fits hopefully tomorrow.  I was worried the tooling would suffer in the forming process, but it seemed to hold up well enough.  It does have slots in it now, but they aren't pretty.  Good thing it is a prototype!

YinTx

[Handstitched]

Yup, I see it .

On 10/7/2019 at 9:31 AM, wizard of tragacanth said:

For the next iteration, instead of using two pieces of leather, use one long piece and fold it under the knife, then mold and stitch it exactly as you have done here, then trim off the excess.

I've done that with phone cases, like a ' one piece' case .

[YinTx]

Prototype turned out to be a bit snug, so back to the drawing board...  

YinTx

[Dwight]

5 hours ago, YinTx said:

Prototype turned out to be a bit snug, so back to the drawing board...  

YinTx

YinTx, . . . wrap that puppy in a gallon freezer bag, . . . stuff it down in the holster, . . . come back tomorrow, . . . remove the bag, . . . you may  be surprised how well it will fit then.

I do that all the time with gun holsters, . . . works like a champ.  

Have even done it with cell phone cases and knife sheaths.

If one layer doesn't work, . . . try two, . . . then three, etc.

May God bless,

Dwight

[YinTx]

@Dwight, I considered doing that, but the customer wanted a different look than the prototype, so I went ahead and did version 4.  He says it's a keeper, but hasn't been able to acquire it yet due to the stay at home orders here.  Here's the look - and it works pretty well.

YinTx