What are you using as an internal belt stiffener

[thefallguy]

I personally want my belts to conform to my waist over time without sagging or rolling. Kydex or steel do a good job preventing sagging and rolling, but they won't alter their shape enough to conform to your body, so I don't prefer to use them as a liner if that's important to you.

In the past, whenever someone has required an extra stiff belt that would still conform to their body, we have used a layer of 3/4" wide elk rawhide sewn with a single stitch line to a 7/8 oz. liner (either cowhide or a horsehide butt depending on availability) and topped with 6/7 oz. cowhide or an exotic skin backed with a 3/4 oz. layer. I stop the rawhide just short of the holes on either end of the belt. This has resulted in a belt stiff enough to hold out straight without folding over under it's own weight, but it still conforms to your body shape within a couple of months of daily wear. As an added bonus the belt has a domed appearance similar to a skived dress belt. For belts we run 277 on top and 207 in the bobbin (346 just stood out too much unless you want to run a stitch groover which I tend not to do). We always use Wickett and Craig backs for our belts (besides the rare horsehide liner), but I seem to remember the premium double shoulders from Zack White being very stiff when I was experimenting with them so I suspect they would make a good belt as well.

I have access to a lot of nylon webbing, but I have never gotten around to trying particle's method of reinforcement. I think it would probably allow the belt to conform somewhat as well. If taking the shape of your body isn't important to you/your customer, I don't have any advice you haven't already considered.  

[wolfe9]

thefallguy : thank you for your input , have you had any problems with the rawhide cracking ? I have never used any elk rawhide or even put my hands on any but I am always open to trying something new . 

[greystoneleatherllc]

Use quality American tanned leather in correct weights and no need for stiffener,

there are also synthetic pallet banding materials,,, but WHY???

or use lower grade imports and solve a problem with another potential problem ..db

[thefallguy]

11 hours ago, wolfe9 said:

thefallguy : thank you for your input , have you had any problems with the rawhide cracking ? I have never used any elk rawhide or even put my hands on any but I am always open to trying something new . 

To my knowledge there has never been a problem with cracking. None of our personal belts have shown any signs of it and we have had no customer complaints after years of use.

When we started doing the rawhide reinforcement we originally used normal rawhide strips like people use for saddle horns but we had to soak and stretch them and try to true them up to look right in the belt and it was a major pain in the posterior. We ended up using elk because it was a consistent thickness and large enough to cut straight straps from. We were happy with how it turned out so we stuck with it.

[wolfe9]

18 hours ago, greystoneleatherllc said:

Use quality American tanned leather in correct weights and no need for stiffener,

there are also synthetic pallet banding materials,,, but WHY???

or use lower grade imports and solve a problem with another potential problem ..db

It is not my intent to flame or disrespect anyone but on the flip side I don't want someone to read part of this thread and think that I would EVER use subpar materials .

I respectfully ask that people read the entire thread before commenting .

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by wolfe9

[BruceEW]

On 10/14/2019 at 11:17 PM, thefallguy said:

I personally want my belts to conform to my waist over time without sagging or rolling. Kydex or steel do a good job preventing sagging and rolling, but they won't alter their shape enough to conform to your body, so I don't prefer to use them as a liner if that's important to you.

In the past, whenever someone has required an extra stiff belt that would still conform to their body, we have used a layer of 3/4" wide elk rawhide sewn with a single stitch line to a 7/8 oz. liner (either cowhide or a horsehide butt depending on availability) and topped with 6/7 oz. cowhide or an exotic skin backed with a 3/4 oz. layer. I stop the rawhide just short of the holes on either end of the belt. This has resulted in a belt stiff enough to hold out straight without folding over under it's own weight, but it still conforms to your body shape within a couple of months of daily wear. As an added bonus the belt has a domed appearance similar to a skived dress belt. For belts we run 277 on top and 207 in the bobbin (346 just stood out too much unless you want to run a stitch groover which I tend not to do). We always use Wickett and Craig backs for our belts (besides the rare horsehide liner), but I seem to remember the premium double shoulders from Zack White being very stiff when I was experimenting with them so I suspect they would make a good belt as well.

I have access to a lot of nylon webbing, but I have never gotten around to trying particle's method of reinforcement. I think it would probably allow the belt to conform somewhat as well. If taking the shape of your body isn't important to you/your customer, I don't have any advice you haven't already considered.  

For personal reference, when you do exotics with the rawhide liner, do you just inlay them into the outer layer, or do you have to thin down the rawhide under the inlay as well?

 

[thefallguy]

8 hours ago, BruceEW said:

For personal reference, when you do exotics with the rawhide liner, do you just inlay them into the outer layer, or do you have to thin down the rawhide under the inlay as well?

 

I can't get to any pictures right now but I will try to explain clearly how we make a 1 1/2" full exotic belt -

We start with a 1 1/2" wide 7/8 oz. liner unless the order requires something else for whatever reason (horsehide or 8/9 cowhide, usually). We cut the liner to length (from just past the tip of where the billet end point will be to just inside the fold of the buckle end) and measure where the chicago screw and adjustment holes will be. Then we subtract 3/4" from that measurement and cut the 3/4" wide rawhide strip to that length and round the ends with a round strap end punch. Next we glue the rawhide in place with Lyons or Barge cement and run a single stitch row directly down the center of the rawhide, back stitching the ends and melting the thread ends against the inward side of the newly reinforced liner.

For the top layer we cut a 2" strap out of 3/4 oz. cowhide (unless the exotic in question needs a heavier of lighter weight backing, depending on its thickness) and glue it to the exotic leather flesh side to flesh side. Now we will trim the buckle end to 1 1/2" wide and cut and punch the holes before stitching the buckle end so the stitches will overlap the liner by 3 or 4 stitches [once it is in place], melting the thread ends on the interior side of the belt. Next we will rough the top grain of the inside layer for a better bond with the cement (except for the area that we have already cut to width and sewn).

Now it is time to glue the two layers together trying for a 1/4" overlap of the top layer off either side of the liner. Setting the glue with a small hammer down the middle and then along each edge brings out the domed shape of the belt, being sure to leave the liner side against work surface so the lined side of the belt stays flat. Now we trim the excess exotic material off either side using the liner as a guide, then cut the billet end and punch the holes. This results in a flat area to stitch around the edges of the belt that's around 1/4" wide without having to try to taper or skive any rawhide/leather. After that we sew the top to the liner and finish out the belt with our normal edge finishing processes and treatments. This is a time consuming and expensive method of building exotic belts, but it is by far the best exotic gun belt there is (in my opinion). If you [or anyone reading] decide to build an exotic gun belt with this method all I ask is that you give us credit (just PM me for that info).

Did that answer your question or were you referring to a belt with an exotic inlay that uses the thickness of the rawhide to push the exotic flush with the top layer?

Edited October 19, 2019 by thefallguy
grammar/spelling and clarity

[BruceEW]

Thank you

[Professor]

On 10/17/2019 at 2:21 AM, thefallguy said:

I have never used any elk rawhide or even put my hands on any but I am always open to trying something new . 

My two cents

I had a pair of moccasins many years ago that had Elk hide soles. I know from experience that properly treated Elk hide is tough enough to turn the point of a tack.

Also Elk hide, and in Europe the word Elk is also used for what we call the Moose, was used for what they called a Buff Leather coat which was worn along with a steel breastplate as horseman's armor. it could turn most blades and tangle up and stop an arrow head if fired from long range. If a lead ball from a musket defeated the steel plate it might be too flattened and slowed down to pass through the coat.

An American Indian tribe, their name escapes me at the moment, used the hide of the American Elk as armor. Two layers of thick Elk hide padded with fur or horse hair was proof against arrows and knives and at long range could stop a musket ball. These guys also wore helmets carved from hardwood , very gung ho rascals.

I don't know what method they used to treat the hides but Plains Indians steamed Buffalo hides to make them thicker as they drew up, resulting in a shield three inches thick which could stop the ball from a Colt 1860 revolver at point blank range.

[wolfe9]

Professor that is very interesting . It is amazing the skill and knowledge that people all over the world had hundreds of years ago and at the same time its sad that so much of that old world knowledge has been lost (at least  to most people). We think that we have come so far and are so smart but have we really ?