Unclean edges

[LionCrownLeather]

Hello all, 

I have been improving the edges of my projects lately but I am having trouble making both sides of the project which are sewn together look like one piece. 

Imagine two pieces of leather that you want to sew together. I want the edges to look clean. I always sandpaper and make sure the edges match, but the problem is that depending on how much I sandpaper the leather tends to fold a bit at the edge, mostly the flesh side of the leather. This create an uneven line when the two pieces are sewn together. Maybe this is normal and is usually invisible if enough amount of dye and burnishing is applied? Maybe you cut the extra fibres off from the flesh side with a sharp razor after having used sandpaper? See images attached. The line is not in the middle when the project is sewn together and it makes the edge look unprofessional. Maybe its because I should bevel both sides of the project? I cut the project out of a piece of leather, bevel edges, sandpaper, bevel again, check the edges, if unsmooth I will sandpaper more, dip dye, glue together, use a wing divider to mark line, make holes with chisel, hand stich, apply edge paint, apply tekonole and burnish. 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by LionCrownLeather

[Grumpymann]

Are you gluing? 

[OldLeatherGuy]

And, to add to Grumpy's question, if you are gluing, are you applying enough weight to the glued panels and/or lightly hammering the glued edges with a leather type convex head hammer? Also, are you allowing the contact cement to thoroughly dry at least overnight. I live an a very humid area on the FL Panhandle and, if I don't give the glue adequate time to completely dry, [sometimes up to 48 hours, depending on how high the humidity is], when I work the edges with sandpaper, [I hand sand only], sometimes the leather gets a bit "mushy" and begins to "bend" back and forth as I sand with usually 150, 220, and 400 in that order. Much of how the leather reacts, as you work it through the various stages of finishing, depends on the grade of the leather and how much time you are spending doing a certain procedure like dressing the edges. The more you work the edges on lower grade leather, the more flexible the leather can become. 

Good luck on getting it worked out.

[LatigoAmigo]

44 minutes ago, OldLeatherGuy said:

The more you work the edges on lower grade leather, the more flexible the leather can become. 

And to add to that... the belly section of the leather is by nature softer than the shoulders, so even a quality grade of leather can still give you soft edges.

[LionCrownLeather]

On 6/28/2020 at 3:46 AM, Grumpymann said:

Are you gluing? 

Ofcourse, i always glue both pieces together. 

[LionCrownLeather]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:15 PM, OldLeatherGuy said:

And, to add to Grumpy's question, if you are gluing, are you applying enough weight to the glued panels and/or lightly hammering the glued edges with a leather type convex head hammer? Also, are you allowing the contact cement to thoroughly dry at least overnight. I live an a very humid area on the FL Panhandle and, if I don't give the glue adequate time to completely dry, [sometimes up to 48 hours, depending on how high the humidity is], when I work the edges with sandpaper, [I hand sand only], sometimes the leather gets a bit "mushy" and begins to "bend" back and forth as I sand with usually 150, 220, and 400 in that order. Much of how the leather reacts, as you work it through the various stages of finishing, depends on the grade of the leather and how much time you are spending doing a certain procedure like dressing the edges. The more you work the edges on lower grade leather, the more flexible the leather can become. 

Good luck on getting it worked out.

I do glue but I only let it dry two hours and I dont hammer the glued area, i am a bit afraid of hammering because everytime I hammer my stichting my veg tanned leather gets damages, I have seen people use a piece of leather on the project to hammer on but that is a different topic.. I  dont add any weight on the glue no :/

[RockyAussie]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:05 AM, LionCrownLeather said:

apply edge paint, apply tekonole and burnish

I think that you may be mixing up 2 different processes here. You either burnish or you edge paint. The edge paint is the split lines I think you are seeing which is a pretty common thing to experience with a lot of the edge paints types. You did not mention which type of dye you are using and that could also be having a detrimental effect on the edge coat as well. I generally use an iron to smooth out my edge paint and sometimes a little sanding and grey scotch bright pads and follow that up with some wax polishing. I never try and burnish in any way when doing edge painting. If you burnish before the paint then the paint will peel off easily. If you burnish after applying the paint you could easily make the paint go all over the place and it will not shine up well. Note: many of the edge paints available are not thermo mouldable any longer and these require more of a sanding process unfortunately.

[Spyros]

I think edges is one of those things that only other leather workers notice. I've decided to keep mine somewhat reasonable and focus on the important things, which is pretty much everything else except edges  LOL

Having said that, the best tutorial I've seen is on edges was by another Swedish member, Danne:

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Spyros

[Hardrada]

I don't bother sanding: I always found it too messy and then the edges' edges mushroom. I glass my edges instead with my skiving knife, then proceed to applying Edge Kote or edge paint.

[LionCrownLeather]

7 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I think that you may be mixing up 2 different processes here. You either burnish or you edge paint. The edge paint is the split lines I think you are seeing which is a pretty common thing to experience with a lot of the edge paints types. You did not mention which type of dye you are using and that could also be having a detrimental effect on the edge coat as well. I generally use an iron to smooth out my edge paint and sometimes a little sanding and grey scotch bright pads and follow that up with some wax polishing. I never try and burnish in any way when doing edge painting. If you burnish before the paint then the paint will peel off easily. If you burnish after applying the paint you could easily make the paint go all over the place and it will not shine up well. Note: many of the edge paints available are not thermo mouldable any longer and these require more of a sanding process unfortunately.

I used fieblings pro oil dye, the same dye I used on my project. 

What do you use for polishing the edges? 

You mention Ironing the edges, how do you do that? 

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, LionCrownLeather said:

I used fieblings pro oil dye, the same dye I used on my project. 

What do you use for polishing the edges? 

You mention Ironing the edges, how do you do that? 

Most of the answers to these questions and a whole lot more you can see within this post I did awhile ago. Although this is about making croc belts the same procedure is applied to most of the other products as well normally. https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/86675-how-i-make-crocodile-skin-leather-belts/

If you care to go to my profile section and have a look in the about me section you can find a lot of other projects that will show you a bit more here and there.

[LionCrownLeather]

11 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Most of the answers to these questions and a whole lot more you can see within this post I did awhile ago. Although this is about making croc belts the same procedure is applied to most of the other products as well normally. https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/86675-how-i-make-crocodile-skin-leather-belts/

If you care to go to my profile section and have a look in the about me section you can find a lot of other projects that will show you a bit more here and there.

Thank you. While I have you on the thread I have a second question. If I dip dye my projects and want to dye my edges with another color compared to the primary dye I used for dip dyeing my project how do I do that? I always dip dye because when I dye my projects with a dauber I always get dye on the edges giving the piece an unconsisten look. Maybe I should bevel after dyeing? 

[LionCrownLeather]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:08 AM, Spyros said:

I think edges is one of those things that only other leather workers notice. I've decided to keep mine somewhat reasonable and focus on the important things, which is pretty much everything else except edges  LOL

Having said that, the best tutorial I've seen is on edges was by another Swedish member, Danne:

 

Interesting post. He does not use any slicker which is quite odd to me. I have seen other posts where they dont use a creaser but also get great results. Apparently every person seem to have their own way of treating the edges. 

[Danne]

1 hour ago, LionCrownLeather said:

Interesting post. He does not use any slicker which is quite odd to me. I have seen other posts where they dont use a creaser but also get great results. Apparently every person seem to have their own way of treating the edges. 

Hi LionCrownLeather, one of the reasons I never use a slicker is that my edges are rarely thicker than 2mm. (In some cases 3mm on watch straps) For really thick edges I can see the benefit of a slicker, even though I would probably use a cloth. I don't even like canvas, I prefer something a little less rough.

I'm certainly no expert on burnishing dyed edges. But here is how I have done it the few times i've tried it. (Include a photo of a dyed and burnished edge with this technique.)

1. Sand edges flat, the choice of grit depends a little bit on the type of leather, a stiffer leather and a rougher sandpaper like around 100-200 grit works good. For medium soft and softer leather I prefer 400 grit (wet and dry, I use Mirka) Don't put to much pressure on the edge when you sand, then you "mush" the edge, if you do, just lay it flat and burnish the edge transition from both sides (to push down the edge) Also try to sand "across the egde" and not along the edge. (Finer sanding I do along the edge, rougher sanding across the edge.) Sand until you have a relatively flat edge. (Flash cut your edge and you don't need to sand at all.

2. Burnish the edge with water. (I use a brush and just brush on a small amount of water.

3. slightly sand the edge with 400 grit.

4. Dye your edge (Why did I burnish with water before dying? to avoid dye seeping over the edge to much, especially if the leather is not lined)

4. Burnish with tokonole

5. Sand with 400 grit

6. Burnish with tokonole

7. Keep doing this until you have a relatively good edge. And keep doing the same but with a higher grit like 800-1200.

(Optional) 8. Melt bees wax or paraffin on the edge and burnish.

 

But there are a lot of ways to burnish edges, both techniques and agents like with Tokonole, Saddle soap, Arabic gum or Funori.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Danne

[RockyAussie]

On 7/2/2020 at 6:42 AM, LionCrownLeather said:

Thank you. While I have you on the thread I have a second question. If I dip dye my projects and want to dye my edges with another color compared to the primary dye I used for dip dyeing my project how do I do that? I always dip dye because when I dye my projects with a dauber I always get dye on the edges giving the piece an unconsisten look. Maybe I should bevel after dyeing? 

I don't do much dyeing of leather edges myself and for every person out there, there is almost as many methods. What type of product you are doing will often change how you go about it. I would have a good look through this post which can be found pinned in the How to section forum along with a few other similar subjects-

 

[LionCrownLeather]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:10 AM, Danne said:

Hi LionCrownLeather, one of the reasons I never use a slicker is that my edges are rarely thicker than 2mm. (In some cases 3mm on watch straps) For really thick edges I can see the benefit of a slicker, even though I would probably use a cloth. I don't even like canvas, I prefer something a little less rough.

I'm certainly no expert on burnishing dyed edges. But here is how I have done it the few times i've tried it. (Include a photo of a dyed and burnished edge with this technique.)

1. Sand edges flat, the choice of grit depends a little bit on the type of leather, a stiffer leather and a rougher sandpaper like around 100-200 grit works good. For medium soft and softer leather I prefer 400 grit (wet and dry, I use Mirka) Don't put to much pressure on the edge when you sand, then you "mush" the edge, if you do, just lay it flat and burnish the edge transition from both sides (to push down the edge) Also try to sand "across the egde" and not along the edge. (Finer sanding I do along the edge, rougher sanding across the edge.) Sand until you have a relatively flat edge. (Flash cut your edge and you don't need to sand at all.

2. Burnish the edge with water. (I use a brush and just brush on a small amount of water.

3. slightly sand the edge with 400 grit.

4. Dye your edge (Why did I burnish with water before dying? to avoid dye seeping over the edge to much, especially if the leather is not lined)

4. Burnish with tokonole

5. Sand with 400 grit

6. Burnish with tokonole

7. Keep doing this until you have a relatively good edge. And keep doing the same but with a higher grit like 800-1200.

(Optional) 8. Melt bees wax or paraffin on the edge and burnish.

 

But there are a lot of ways to burnish edges, both techniques and agents like with Tokonole, Saddle soap, Arabic gum or Funori.

Thank you for this useful information 

[johnv474]

Something that can help with the line between layers remaining in the center is to paste/flatten the back near the edge.  Tokonole (better) or CMC (far cheaper) are both good for this.  After applying, wait a few seconds and then compress with a bone folder or something else smooth.  Obviously, don't bevel the backside.

 

By compressing the fibers, some of the loose small ones won't want to cross the centerline.

[Danne]

14 minutes ago, johnv474 said:

Something that can help with the line between layers remaining in the center is to paste/flatten the back near the edge.  Tokonole (better) or CMC (far cheaper) are both good for this.  After applying, wait a few seconds and then compress with a bone folder or something else smooth.  Obviously, don't bevel the backside.

 

By compressing the fibers, some of the loose small ones won't want to cross the centerline.

But wouldn't Tokonole or Tragacanth cause adhesion problems for the glue?

My example photo is two layers of leather, how did I avoid the line between layers? very thin coats of glue (water based used as contact cement) Sometimes it can be a problem if a slower drying glue is used, it's important to let it dry completely before burnishing.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Danne

[johnv474]

I do not suggest Tragacanth.  It may have some use somewhere but I don't like it for leather.

Tokonole contains adhesive.  CMC does not.  Either one will interfere with dye absorption, but neither interfere with glue or cement in my experience.  I still sand/scuff the area I am actually gluing, however.

If you use water-based contact cement such as Aquilim, then be aware that both Tokonole and CMC are water-based.  Maybe that's why they work. 

If you use the neoprene-based contact cement (Barge, Masters, etc), the solvents in there will cut through most anything you put on the leather anyway.  For a very good bond, use it thinned down a lot for your first coat, and let it dry entirely.  That layer will act as a primer for subsequent coats.

Either of those options do their job well but are not topcoats.  They need Resolene or something else when the project is done.

 I recently used CMC and glue to smooth pebbled kidskins, then stacked them four thick. I let the glue dry under some pressure.  When cut, you could see the dark/light striped effect and there were no gaps. They burnished beautifully. I'll see if I still have any.

Edited July 5, 2020 by johnv474

[LionCrownLeather]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:24 PM, johnv474 said:

Something that can help with the line between layers remaining in the center is to paste/flatten the back near the edge.  Tokonole (better) or CMC (far cheaper) are both good for this.  After applying, wait a few seconds and then compress with a bone folder or something else smooth.  Obviously, don't bevel the backside.

 

By compressing the fibers, some of the loose small ones won't want to cross the centerline.

If I compress the fibres wont that interfere when I apply glue to hold the pieces together? Because tokonole closes the fibres and I think those asisst in making the piece glued harder together? 

Edited July 16, 2020 by LionCrownLeather

[paloma]

to have a clean edge, you have to cut the two pieces of leather together and at the same time once sewn, then, without sanding, pass either an acrylic primer and then sand and then pass the color of edge giardini style, and then sand again and put a new coat of paint.me I cut and then I pass tragacante gum,burnishing, I sand and wax with beeswax several times, burnishing,but before I passed the carnuba wax.

Edited July 17, 2020 by paloma

[johnv474]

17 hours ago, LionCrownLeather said:

If I compress the fibres wont that interfere when I apply glue to hold the pieces together? Because tokonole closes the fibres and I think those asisst in making the piece glued harder together? 

Tokonole contains a small amount of adhesive that the glue sticks to.  CMC is a very mild adhesive as well, perhaps on par with envelope glue. It is a very thin layer that does not seal anything.  Most adhesives will seal the fibers once dry.

Cutting the pieces after being glued, as Paloma mentioned, is also very effective and can help eliminate fibers crossing the centerline.

To eliminate fibers crossing over you can use thinner leather (fibers are looser the deeper in the skin they were), or from a denser part of the hide (butt then shoulder then back then belly), or skive / sand the back smoother, or compress the fibers on the flesh side.

[Danne]

2 hours ago, johnv474 said:

Tokonole contains a small amount of adhesive that the glue sticks to.  CMC is a very mild adhesive as well, perhaps on par with envelope glue. It is a very thin layer that does not seal anything.  Most adhesives will seal the fibers once dry.

Cutting the pieces after being glued, as Paloma mentioned, is also very effective and can help eliminate fibers crossing the centerline.

To eliminate fibers crossing over you can use thinner leather (fibers are looser the deeper in the skin they were), or from a denser part of the hide (butt then shoulder then back then belly), or skive / sand the back smoother, or compress the fibers on the flesh side.

 

The strange part here is, I have no problem with this at all. A thin layer solvent based or water based contact cement and put together and hammer or press down the edges and let it dry before finishing edges. But I think the reason might be that all my leather is split down (In a band knife splitter) so the flesh side is very even. Also the thickest leather I use is 1mm. Like in my example it's two 1mm layers glued together and you have to look very close to see any line between layers (almost invisible)

[LionCrownLeather]

On 7/17/2020 at 7:17 PM, johnv474 said:

Tokonole contains a small amount of adhesive that the glue sticks to.  CMC is a very mild adhesive as well, perhaps on par with envelope glue. It is a very thin layer that does not seal anything.  Most adhesives will seal the fibers once dry.

Cutting the pieces after being glued, as Paloma mentioned, is also very effective and can help eliminate fibers crossing the centerline.

To eliminate fibers crossing over you can use thinner leather (fibers are looser the deeper in the skin they were), or from a denser part of the hide (butt then shoulder then back then belly), or skive / sand the back smoother, or compress the fibers on the flesh side.

When cutting the pieces after gluing what I like about this idea is that you can decide which color you want the edge to be. In my case I always dip dye, and if I want the edges to have the natural leather color I simply cut after I have dyed, but if I want the edges to be dyed I simply cut before dyeing. thank you