CB3200 or lower? Final decision/indecision

[PALeatherArt]

Dear everyone at leatherworker.net,

Thank you first for the guidance I found in the many articles of this forum and for the many to come. I'm from France, therefore have a hard time with inches, ounces (oz), thread and needle sizes ~~ but I manage the conversions so don't mind answering in the system you're using. After a lot of reading I can't still make a decision so I would like to ask your help chosing a sewing machine model. 

I'm doing mostly tooling/engraving, but am sometimes facing time-consuming stitches. I would like to buy a sewing machine, but as I didn't really narrow my activity it's hard to chose. So let me list a few things that might help chose a machine:
- Condition of the machine: I have no problem with used machines as I'm not going to use it everyday or on every articles i'm making
- Range of leather thickness: from 2mm/5oz (2 layers of 1mm/2-3oz) for wallets up to 10mm/ 25/64" (3 layers of 3.2mm/8oz) for armors. I'm not doing sheath, sadles or stuff requiring a 4+layers of 10oz leather. Most of the time I'll only sew 2 layers of 8oz/3.2mm max. 
- Range of thread&needles: Again the european system compared to US one is a nightmare to figure, but I assume a #92 thread for wallets up to #277 for armors. And hopefully no need to "dumbed down" the machine like I have read.
- Able to see slowly, armors can have very weird designs sometimes so if I can almost go a stitch at a time it would be perfect.

After reading a lot of articles in this section I've contacted 2 heavy-duty sewing machine manufaturer and they offered me with 2 different machines:
- SIECK 441 K (which is a Cowboy CB3200 from what they told me)
- Durkopp-Adler 169 (I didn't found a lot of informations or videos about it and it's more expensive than the cb3200).

I was pratically sold on the CB3200, because in addition to its caracteristics I know I an have a lot of help from the different topics of this forum and there are tones of youtube videos. But in some topics here it was mentionned it wouldnt fit the wallet kind of goods (2+mm/5+oz leather thickness with #92 thread), and it might be a little overkill considering I'm not going to end up stitching 12mm / 15/32" thick leather. 

So I wanted your advice: Do you have a cheaper machine than the CB3200 to recommend that would suit my needs? 
And if you've got an used/cheaper machine somewhere in Europe that could fit I'd be happy to pay for the delivery.

Thank you very much for your help!
P.A

[Wizcrafts]

You have discovered the dilemma that almost every leathercrafter encounters as the ponder a sewing machine. I went through the process of elimination years ago by buying various sewing machines for different thicknesses of thread and material.

What I and most others have learned is that there are really a minimum of two classes of machine needed to properly sew things from 1mm up to 20mm. The thinner materials, ranging from say 2mm up to 10mm need a gentler mechanism than thicker stacks of leather. This includes all of the moving parts, as well as the thread tensioning springs and presser foot spring that has to hold down the work as the needle comes up. This type of machine, in walking foot form, is referred to by me as an "upholstery class machine." These machines have triple feed for positive feeding of fairly heavy leather seams that are often 8 feet long on couches and sofas. The machines are designed to sew properly with thread sizes from #46 on the small end to #138 on the big end. This calls for a range of needles from #80 through #160 (EU/Metric). Some machines are built with heavier take-up parts and springs that can tension and clear #207 thread.

As for #277 thread, this is very large and difficult for upholstery class machines to clear around the hook mechanism. It is really too much for most machines except those that have been beefed up by the manufacturer, or modified by the dealer. The clearances have to be increases fot the hook, sometimes leading to problems with thinner thread and thinner needles. Some of our advertisers have done these modifications. Since you are in Europa you should probably contact Siecke and ask them about this matter. They may have a suitable machine that is already beefed up that can sew from 2 up to 10mm with #207 or 277 thread, on top and bottom. They may tell you that a certain machine can handle the heavy thread on top only with thinner thread in the bobbin.

Otherwise, you would have to dumb down a 441 clone, which I have written about here.

[PALeatherArt]

Thank you very much for your reply Sir. And all of the informations you shared.

My problem is I already contacted Siecke, with my 2mm up to 10mm specifications and they suggested me the SIECK 441 K (They said it was the CB3200). But from this forum I read it might be for "beefy wallets". So it seems I ended in a loop, one suggesting to see with the other ahah.

Can a CB3200 sew with #92? Does it need to be dumbed down for #69 or also for #92? Will it handle the 2mm/5oz leather without a problem? I'm only using veg-tan, no chrome.

But I will contact them again with your infos and ask if they have a ighter model than the CB3200 then can upgrade for thicker leather maybe. 

[dikman]

If it has "441" in its description then it's most likely a 441 clone, which is a heavier duty than a 3200. You need to download the specifications for what they're selling and compare them to the equivalent Cowboy models. That will give you a better idea of just what they're trying to sell you. I think you will be struggling trying to sew thin/light wallets on a 3200, and you definitely will on a 441!

As Wiz said, it's an unfortunate fact that to sew the range that you have mentioned will require more than one machine.

[Wizcrafts]

P.A.;

Read my blog article that I linked to in my first reply. It explains what you have to go through to dumb down a 441 type machine. If you do that it will be capable of sewing with T70 thread using a #110 needle, or T90 thread with a #120 or #125 needle. The feed dog may have to be removed and a narrow slot throat plate installed in place of the standard plate. This makes it a dual feed machine that is less likely to let soft thin leather gets pushed into the huge cutout for the standard (enormous) feed dog (which also has a huge needle hole). Sieke may or may not offer that throat plate.

Theoretically, one can operate a 441 in dumbed down mode most of the time, then smarten it up for heavy work. The conversion takes between 10 and 20 minutes. Be prepared to replace thin needles often as they are easy to deflect and break I would stock up with extra packs of #110 and #120 needles if you use them in a 441 machine. The reason is that they are about 65mm long and the hook pulls the thread to the left as you sew. The stronger the bobbin tension, the greater the needle is deflected.

Personally, I would avoid using T70 thread and a #110 needle in a 441 machine unless the work is soft temper and thread tensions are very light. This would minimize the deflection caused by the machine itself. When dumbed down, my Cowboy CB4500 can hem denim jeans with T90 thread, but the needles often break when it reaches the big side seam (if I forget to hammer down that seam). These machines really don't come into their own until you install a #160 needle and T135 thread, top and bottom.

 

[PALeatherArt]

Thank you guys for your insights! Thought it lead to more questions ahah.

@dikman You're saying CB3200 and whatever machine with 441 in its name are different machine and SIECK assured me their SIECK Type 441 SLOW K is the same machine as the CB3200. So who's wrong? :x

@Wizcrafts I found a datasheet and video of a Cowboy CB4500 saying its needle range was #18-27 and thread range #69-415. And in your opinion of someone using such a machine you say the only way to achieve those range is to dumb down your machine from triple feed to double feed right? Meaning they are overselling the capacity of the CB4500 in the datasheet ~~

- SIECK told me to have the stitch-to-stich option they would need to replace the servomotor+reducer with an efka motor. In your opinion is it a must-have or is the servomotor+reducer already going slow-enough to almost to stich-by-stich ?
 

I will ask a last question summing up this topic: To sew vegetable tan leather from 3mm up to 10mm with a #92-138 thread up to #346 thread (needle range #19-27), do you think a Cowboy CB3200 (or a clone from SIECK) is what I need, or do you think of another machine (not more expensive, 2000€/$ is pretty much the max of my budget)?

Thank you guys for your time and help!

p;s: I joined the datasheet and one picture of SIECK's proposal. Although I'm not sure the datasheet is correct because it mentions an arm length of 420mm when they told me their model would have a 270mm arm...

 

441.pdf

[Wizcrafts]

The datasheet is technically correct about #69 (T70) thread. However, in real life this thin thread will be problematic to get right. The springs in these machines are extremely heavy duty. The top tension would almost have to be run at next to nothing to keep the knots from sitting on top. The bobbin tension spring would have to be cranked really tight to balance the knots.  This will pucker thin or soft materials. Further, thin thread requires thin needles, which tend to deflect and break, unless you don't mind a larger than normal needle hole from a larger needle.

You don't absolutely have to remove the feed dog and standard throat plate if your leather is stiff enough to not get pushed into the big lot and hole. Perhaps they can find you a Juki feed dog that has a smaller hole.

The difference between us is that I am in business and have different machines for thick and thin work and thread sizes. I don't try to make my huge harness stitcher sew wallets because I have lighter duty machines that are better suited to that work.

To answer your question about the larger thread, only a 441 (Juki TSC-441) clone, or Adler 205-370 or above will handle #346 bonded thread. None o9f the upholster class machines will tension and clear that size of thread.

If you are at all able to visit a dealer, do so. Bring or send in your leather and ask them to sew it on machines they are offering to you. They might do that if they have time. Be prepared to spend twice as much so you can get two machines, possibly at a package price. One could be a light duty walking foot and the other the CB3200 equivalent.

I will be busy for the rest of the day. Good hunting!

[PALeatherArt]

Thank you Wizcrafts for your help, I'll use all those infos to check with SIECK the best model they have for me.

Have a nice day!

[dikman]

I did a bit of comparing and that photo is a 3200, not a 441. The specs in the .pdf you've listed are not for that machine. Do a search for Cowboy 3200 and you'll find the info relating to the machine in your picture. Someone at that company is a bit confused. The 3200 is a "lighter" version of the 441 with less lift and will only handle up to 1/2" under the feet. They rate it as handling #69 to #346  thread, but realistically you may have problems trying to sew thin leather because it's still a heavy duty machine.

As for the Efka motor, not necessary in my opinion. These machines have a large handwheel and if you match that with a servo and speed reducer you should be able to sew as slow as you need.

[PALeatherArt]

Thanks a lot dikman that's what I needed to hear!

1/2" max is perfect for me. And if it can sew wihth #92 and #346 it's perfect too.
As for the leather thickness, since the minimum I"ll probably have to sew will be around 7/64" - 1/8" it shouldn't be that hard. And if it is I'll dumb down the machine like Wizcrafts recommended.
The SIECK company, instead of answering the many questions I had proposed that I send over material and thread and they'll do the test, so it's perfect this way too.

For the very light material I have a Juki ddl 8700 available. It's not ideal as it's kinda super fast but I already tested it for 3/32" and it worked so I'll go for the heavier machine.
And thanks for the efka tip, that's what I was thinking considering all youtube slow videos are done only with servo+reducer but they didn't answered that.

Thanks again for your answers it was a big help!

Best,
P.A

[dikman]

No worries, glad I could help. The 3200 is actually a nice machine, I was thinking of getting one but they offered me the 4500 at pretty close to the same price so naturally I had to buy the biggest I could!

[Bert51]

@dikman and I do not think you will regret buying it, ever.

Bert.