Singer 211G Upper Stuck Presser Bar Bushing - Looks backwards??

[BdB]

Good evening - Im on a refurbing journey a 211G165 and continue to hit some issues - perhaps some earlier modifications by previous owners.  Another challenge every day!   Thank goodness for the expertise in this forum ---  I need it again!

I am trying to remove the upper arm shaft to address the stuck presser eccentric  - may have to replace it.   I have everything along the  shaft loose and the shaft is moving OK and ready to slide out the face.  I assume that the shaft must come out the face (left) of the machine (instead of handwheel side) because I can't access the set screw on the front bushing.   Can someone verify this for me?

Unfortunately the crank & shaft  is blocked from coming out the face side by the upper presser bar bushing (see pic) -- and I cannot get the upper presser bushing (508246 on the diagram) out.    See pics - versus the parts diagram it appears to be installed upside down.   Can some one provide perspective?   There is no set screw keeping it in (it's gone), yet it flat out won't budge.  I've tapped it hard with a brass hammer but already have caused a little peening from hitting it and don't want to ruin it.      Can someone verify for me that it's upside down?    I'm at the point that I may cut it and pound it out so I can get the crank and shaft out.  

Advice is needed!!

Thanks!
Bruce

 

[Constabulary]

Why are you ripping your machine apart? Just for cleaning? Not necessary. Generally such a long bushing is not necessary so when there is no technical reason other than limiting the foot lift I would cut it down or leave it and continue  w/o removing the upper shaft. Ripping a vintage machine apart can cause trouble such as damaging parts which are (probably) no longer available. So be careful.

My 2 cents.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Constabulary

[BdB]

Thanks Constabulary -- I'm working to get the upper shaft out to remove the presser eccentric to free the ring from its flange -- which is also flat out stuck (covered in another post a couple days back) -- which is making it impossible to adjust the outer presser foot lift.    I agree with you and I'm being as careful as I can and this is what's behind my questions to the forum.    So far PB Blaster soaks, acetone, mineral spirits, tapping,  and torch heat have had limited effect for me on this machine for some reason.     If I can find a suitable upper presser bushing replacement I will consider  something more aggressive  - cut it or sacrifice it and get it out.   But no -- I certainly prefer not to take this path.  

Do these  upper bushings typically slide out more easily once the set screw is removed?   I suspect this one was put back in (upside down?) and press fit somehow.   

Does anyone know if the needle bar is the same diameter in the 111/211 family (or clones) which might give me some options for an upper bushing replacement?

I am challenged but enjoying the journey!    Thanks all and please help with your perspective and knowledge!   

 

[Constabulary]

But you know how to adjust the presser foot height on a 211, right? You need a screwdriver...

The foot bar is the same diameter as on the 111 series.

What I figured is that some Singer 211 (as well as some Dürkopps) have an extremely long brass presser foot bushing. IMO that's is just for limiting the foot lift (don't ask my why they did this) so even a 3/4" long bushing on top will be sufficient. If I were you I´d cut it down.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Constabulary

[BdB]

OK that's where I'm leaning.    I'll keep the group posted.    

If it fails,  I'll get it out the brute force way,  and replace it with a 111W upper presser bushing.    I have seen them online (but not the 211G bushing for whatever reason).   Anyone know a good source for the 211G bushing?   I'd rather stay original if possible.

 

Also, here is the procedure from the 211G165 service manual that I've been using that led me to the frozen presser eccentric disk.   Let me know if I'm missing something.

Thanks again for your response and input!

 

[Constabulary]

right - just wanted to make sure...

I guess the 211 brass bushing has wider outer diameter (not sure though). The bushing on the 111 is steel. I´l post a picture in a minute...

EDIT:

it has 13mm outer diameter - hope this helps.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Constabulary

[DonInReno]

Most things stuck together with old dried oil can be freed up with heat.   Even loctite will soften well before the boiling temp of water.  Heating until a drop of water just starts to boil is easy, safe on any heat treating, and usually hot enough.  Point and shoot thermometers are relatively cheap if you do this a lot.  In industrial settings, bearings are often heated to this temp as standard installation procedure.   
 

There is a lot of mass in that area that acts as a heat sink so it will take more heat than most people think.   There is no need to heat back behind the big spinny bit - just heat the face until the backside comes up to temp.   If you lived locally I’d bet lunch that this would free it up!
 

I suggest looking at a few pictures or diagrams showing how pressed in bushings are removed...it’s usually quite simple to rig up - a piece of threaded rod, appropriately sized tubing and a small washer on one end and a large washer on the other.

89D440BE-A8AE-4127-836F-A9FF833080BC.webp

[BdB]

Wow I could try that.  Thanks for the detailed suggestion!   

I'm surprised that it's pressed in.  There's no set screw there...so... 

I agree on the heat but unfortunately  I've had no luck with it on the eccentric disk or the main crank set screws.    I've been using a small butane pencil torch to keep the flame focused and localized.   There's a ton of oil and PB blaster I'm afraid will catch on fire. -- but I guess I can take it outside and bring out the big dog and use a map gas torch.     

Constabulary I am also measuring just under 13mm (12.58mm) on the upper presser  bushing  - .495"  (1/2 inch -- I'd hope that would be a nice standard value to use).    The presser rod measures  .340 in or 7/32" (8.63mm).

 

 

[DonInReno]

To be honest I was worried at first that you were jumping into the deep end of the pool, but if you put as much effort and thought into reassembly this project will work out just fine.   

Here’s a fun catalog - it gives you an idea of what a sewing shop can order that we can’t get online.
 

https://supsew.cld.bz/Superior-Sewing-Digital-Master-Catalog

[mk10]

Your upper presser bar bushing is NOT upside down.

I looked at my 211U and the bushing is oriented just like in your photo (cutout in lower portion).

[DonInReno]

Here’s a link for restoring screw heads that are boogered up

 

[chrisash]

1 hour ago, DonInReno said:

To be honest I was worried at first that you were jumping into the deep end of the pool, but if you put as much effort and thought into reassembly this project will work out just fine.   

Here’s a fun catalog - it gives you an idea of what a sewing shop can order that we can’t get online.
 

https://supsew.cld.bz/Superior-Sewing-Digital-Master-Catalog

Have a look at the tread list it gives the Dia and Thread per inch for most machines screws, lots for Singer machines

[BdB]

Love the screw refurb video thanks DonInReno!     So far getting them out -- to be refurbed -- is the toughest challenge I've faced.   

Thanks MK10 or letting me know that the bushing is not upside down.  This was driving me nuts   The parts diagram shows it inverted for some reason.

I did try a full map gas torch on it to see if that would help and it did not unfortunately.   At this point I'll likely proceed to cutting it per earlier input from Constabulary.   All of the tinkering with it may have knocked it out of true.   As a backup I may drill or  cut & chisel it out of the mounting hole and mount a new 111W bushing -- secured with a set screw this time!

[DonInReno]

31 minutes ago, BdB said:

 

Love the screw refurb video thanks DonInReno!     So far getting them out -- to be refurbed -- is the toughest challenge I've faced.

One trick to getting these screws out is to use the best fitting 1/4” drive hex shank bit, grind it if you have to so there is good contact in the bottom and sides of the slot, then with bit in a 6” bit holder/extension to give it a sharp smacks with a hammer.  We don’t want to bend anything, just jar the screw a bit.  If that doesn’t work, add heat and try again.  If that doesn’t work Ive held the bit tight to the part with a c clamp (the type without a swiveling pad on the screw ).  Turning the screw bit with an end wrench while hammering the screw of the clamp will either break the bit, or break half the head off the screw, but it won’t cam out.   If the part can be held in a drill press vice, chucking a drill bit holder/extension in the chuck and using the feed lever to apply pressure while turning the chuck by hand is sometimes the least work.  
 

As with anything, developing a sense of feel for how hard you can twist things without making it worse takes practice.

 

Personally, I clean a lot with wd40 and don’t have problems with heat treated parts if  they are heated hot enough for the wd40 to smoke.   This is probably in the 300 degree range.  This is also in the safe range for not affecting the temper of the part but it’s quite easy to over heat, so I don’t recommend it to anyone.  Any screw or part heated enough to change color is essentially ruined.  

The picture shows some tempering colors - essentially any color change should be avoided, but short of that we’re well out of the heat range that would affect the part. 

[BdB]

Well thank you to all who have provided great input and knowledge today.  Coming off a total success for the issues I was facing.   I went with Constabulary's recommendation to go ahead and cut the upper presser bushing and I have broken through the bottleneck and am back on track.   Today's steps:

- I was able to cut down the length the stuck upper presser bushing successfully and create room for the crank to pass and  finally pull out the upper arm shaft so I could move on

- checked for fit/free movement for my presser rod - still OK!! No damage after the "haircut" and all that banging and blow torching 

-  finally got the arm shaft out and its attached components off including the stuck presser eccentric dial and flange

- and FINALLY to the root issue behind all of this - get the presser eccentric dial separated from the flange to free up the eccentric mechanism.   SUCCESS!  

In the process I have discovered that the needle crank friction/thrust washer cracked and needs to be replaced.   Hard to find apparently - wondering of there is a suitable substitute with a modern material like a sturdy oil resistant nylon washer or something like that.   Input is welcome and needed !!.

Also I discovered that the primary issue with the stuck eccentric dial was not really dried oil - at least in the end.   The flange's split collar that the dial sits on seems to have expanded and the fit was so tight it flat out would not move.   I will update my previous post requesting help with this with those observations.

Thanks again to all who are helping me out .   I took pics t give back - hopefully they can help another person in the future.

 

Ready to cut the bushing - trying to keep metal shavings rom getting into the machine.

 

After the cut - filed the burrs down later.  Crank and shaft coming out and just squeaks by the freshly cut upper presser bushing 

 

Here's a look with the crank and shaft removed.

 

Shaft out showing the components    The eccentric dial is still stuck hard to that flange...

 

Checked the fit and free movement of the presser bar -- Looks great.

 

An FINALLY got that  %$^#!!*& eccentric dial freed and separated after another hour of effort.  More work here before reassembly.

Edited November 25, 2020 by BdB