Singer 16-41 hook and needle timing help.

[Restorer]

Hello everyone, I have acquired an 1892 Singer 16-41.  I am attempting to time the needle and hook shuttle, but cannot get it to sew. I have installed a new shuttle race and shuttle,  bobbin holder and bobbin.  
 

Having only been able to find adjustment manuals for the Singer 16-141, the needle on the rise should have the shuttle hook 1/16” above the eye of the needle.

My first attempts at timing such an old Singer,  my question is does the needle timing occur at the very bottom of the needle stroke, just starting to rise,,  and does the shuttle get set further past the needle and then swing into the needle scarf, or should the needle be at bottom, and shuttle only having a very limited run into the needle.  
 

thank you all very much.  

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Restorer

[Restorer]

[Constabulary]

I have no timing values for the Class 16 but afaik it has a CB hook. And on most (if not all) CB hook machines you usually you bring the needle bar to bottom dead center and from there you rise the needle bar approx 2.5mm (as I said I have no exact values for the Class 16) and an that point the hook tip should be in the center of the needle approx 2mm above the needle eye.

Have to check if I can find a manual or so....

EDIT:

this is an extract from a Singer 31-19 manual but should work for CB hooks Class 16 machines as well

Edited January 15, 2021 by Constabulary

[Restorer]

Thank you very much, Constabulary,  that is very helpful,  regards Jack,

 

It is a Singer 16-41.  Must be USA. Manufactured. As I cannot find anything close in 16K. Models,  not sure how it came to Australia, had me stumped for a while as it has no brass model number plate attached.  It is CB.  Central bobbin oscillating,  Alternating presser feet.

The most interesting thing is that the machine wheel is turned  clockwise away from you.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Restorer

[Constabulary]

This may be of interest for you. You machine is not listed but anyway....

https://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/2753/imagepages/image35.htm

I found an "odd" Singer 16KSV11 approx 1.5 years ago and reworked it. This ways mine (sold it).

Regarding clockwise rotation - well you live in down under  **kidding** 

I think you can reverse the feed direction by adjusting the feed cam on the top shaft. I once did that on a friends Dürkopp machine but not on a class 16 but I guess its similar. Here again is an extract from a Class 31 manual I think its the same as on the Class 16. But be careful with this you may have a binding at one point. I´d put a mark on the feed cam and the shaft before making adjustments so you always can go back to the original setting. Hope it helps.
 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Constabulary

[DonInReno]

16 hours ago, Restorer said:

The most interesting thing is that the machine wheel is turned  clockwise away from you.

That’s interesting.   Does it have a hook that’s built backwards, or a gear to reverse the rotation of the hook?

[Restorer]

The shuttle is oscillating,  so it goes backwards and forwards in semi circles.  It picks up the thread in the needle , coming at the needle from behind the needle. I think my 31 class singers have the shuttle coming up from the front of the needle.

 

When I purchased this machine, it had 42-5. Scratched into the paint on the front,  Further investigations found a small bobbin , and not the large beak type bobbin on the 42 class. It came to me advertised as “working”.  , but all that meant is that it was free and moving, When I plugged it in to check the motor, the feed dog spat the work piece back at me.   So I changed the field winding wires in the motor to make it spin the opposite direction to match the machine. makes me think it was never used with the current motor to sew, and someone had changed motors , and didn’t understand, what was going on.  
 

Constabulary,   I have checked the feed dog , and with the needle and thread take up lever at top dead centre the feed dog is at the front most position.when sewing without threading the machine. The feed dogs move the material through very well with even stitch puncture holes.

 

I did notice that the hole in in the thread take up lever has some grooves which look sharp and may be snagging the upper thread and affecting upper tension.

Has anyone polished the hole in the thread take up lever, or repaired them some other way?..

regards and Thank Jack

Edited January 16, 2021 by Restorer

[Constabulary]

so it was the motor and not the machine, right?

For the thread hole try abrasive / emery cord.

 

[Restorer]

3 hours ago, Constabulary said:

so it was the motor and not the machine, right?

For the thread hole try abrasive / emery cord.

 

Constabulary,  the machine head need to turn , clockwise, the electric motor fitted to the table was turning anticlockwise.I changed the electric motor to turn clockwise.

I Noticed on the pictures posted of the 16KSv you posted the the tension spring is above the spring adjusting plate, mine was below the little lug on the adjusting plate, so I have made it the same as yours, thank you for the link.

I will not be able to enjoying figuring this machine again until next weekend,

,Have a great week everyone, Jack

[Restorer]

Happy weekend everyone,  time for the update on my vintage c1892. Singer 16-41,  ... well after a couple of more attempts at timing the needle and hook , with no success, I went to the motor and turned the field coils around to spin the sewing machine  balance wheel counter clockwise.  Then adjusted the feed dog cam to feed the work pieces away from me. First attempt, I didn’t get the feed dog quite right, so second attempt, and it gained full motion,.

 

Time to try to sew,  and yes, it picked up the bobbin thread really easily,  and then sewing , for the first time in a really long time.

I am very happy to say the least,,   Thanks for the Guidance Constabulary,  very much appreciated,

regards Jack

 

[Constabulary]

You are welcome,  Jack 

[Bert51]

This post may be of some help.

Bert.

 

[BradenD]

Hi guys Iv'e read almost everything about the class 16 on this forum, Ive just got a 16-88 and the needle bar was loose, now I need to fix that needle bar and get the machine in time.. I've been trying for 3 days without success..  When It seem to get it in time according to the explanation brought by Constabulary, the needle bar can't make its full rotation, it hit the frame body at the top, as if it was set too much up, and then if I try to lower the bar it's get everything out of time.. Looks like the shuttle is one way fixed so only the bar can be moved to get the all thing in time... I can add picture and video if you like.. I really hope to get this mysterious Singer 16-88 work now..  I hope you guys will understand my situation of what I'm trying to say :-)  Someone suggest I've not the right needle, I've checked the needle nothing is specified exept the size which is 22.. The measurment is 45mm which is the same as the 16X63 (fabric)16X64 (leather) that I need..

Edited August 11, 2021 by BradenD

[NovaScotia]

On 8/10/2021 at 11:56 PM, BradenD said:

Hi guys Iv'e read almost everything about the class 16 on this forum, Ive just got a 16-88 and the needle bar was loose, now I need to fix that needle bar and get the machine in time.. I've been trying for 3 days without success..  When It seem to get it in time according to the explanation brought by Constabulary, the needle bar can't make its full rotation, it hit the frame body at the top, as if it was set too much up, and then if I try to lower the bar it's get everything out of time.. Looks like the shuttle is one way fixed so only the bar can be moved to get the all thing in time... I can add picture and video if you like.. I really hope to get this mysterious Singer 16-88 work now..  I hope you guys will understand my situation of what I'm trying to say :-)  Someone suggest I've not the right needle, I've checked the needle nothing is specified exept the size which is 22.. The measurment is 45mm which is the same as the 16X63 (fabric)16X64 (leather) that I need..

Braden did you find out how to solve your problem.  I have the same issue of the needle clamp hitting the frame and figure I need to rotate the hook a few degrees.  Chris in NS

 

[BradenD]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:43 PM, NovaScotia said:

Braden did you find out how to solve your problem.  I have the same issue of the needle clamp hitting the frame and figure I need to rotate the hook a few degrees.  Chris in NS

 

Sorry Chris I've been away for awhile and didn't have time to spend on this Singer 16-88, I'm back at it and will invest time to get it in working condition. I will keep updated. There are not many infos on this machine online, but looks like it's the same machine as the Consew 18, trying to get the manual instruction. Someone tried to help out at that time somewhere else and here's what he had to say : You will want the needle plate removed, as well as the feed dogs to make this process easier. On a piece of stiff paper, make 2 very fine marks 2.5mm apart. Yes, 2.5mm, but you can eyeball that easy enough. You will also need to make another gauge with points 1/16" (1.5875 mm) apart. Make a a very fine mark on the needle bar clamp - think a very thin line (You can use India ink, then scratch a line with a pin or razor blade). Turn the balance wheel towards you until the needle bar is at the absolute bottom dead of the stroke. Place your 2.5mm gauge up against the end of the machine so that the lower mark is aligned with your mark on the clamp. Next, turn the top of the balance wheel towards you so the mark you made on the needle bar clamp is aligned with the top mark on your 2.5mm gauge. Don't move anything! With your needle bar in this position, the point of the hook should be directly behind the needle. If it's not, loosen the linkage that is attached to the hook and adjust. You will want to confirm the position of the needle bar as you do this - keep checking... The next step is to measure the needle bar height. Using your gauge with the 1/16" marks, measure the distance from the top of the eye of the needle to the point on the hook, that distance should be 1/16". If not, loosen the needle bar clamp and move the needle bar up or down to adjust. A magnifying glass helps a lot.

Edited August 27, 2022 by BradenD