Verdigris

[JamesRiley]

Thinking out loud, fishing for insight:

I searched the term "verdigris" on this web site and came up with an overwhelming number of hits.  A serious researcher would read all of it.  And maybe I should, and maybe I will.  A "last word" stickie from an expert would be great, but I didn't see one.  Regardless, that won't stop me from running my key board before I start reading.  Sorry.

I hate verdigris.  But I love brass, especially tarnished brass.  I think it looks better on saddles, tack, gun cartridges' and everything else.  I like brass like I like dark brown leather.  I don't seem to have a problem with it on horse tack, but I do with cartridge belts.  I don't know why there's a difference.  I've taken to using nickel plated shell cases but I don't like the look.  It looks too B Western Hollywood to me.  While some folks just keep their loops empty until they go out, I like to keep all my loops full, if only for wall-hangers.

I thought I once read that vegetable tanned leather won't develop verdigris, but I don't know if that is true.  Regardless, even if so, I usually dye my leather, neatsfoot oil, etc. and wonder if some additions won't create a problem while others do.  I've heard some suggestions on gun sites for coating the cartridges with this or that.  No thanks.  I like the brass to patina.

In the end, I'd like a type of leather tanning, and a type of coloration or antiquing and preservation that will not develop verdigris when my brass cartridges are left in the loops for years.

In re-reading what I wrote, I probably should add that I really don't hate verdigris for what it looks like.  I hate it because sticking gummed up rounds in your weapon is not a good thing for a number of reasons.

Thanks for reading.  

Edited March 27, 2021 by JamesRiley

[Northmount]

To stop verdigris you have to keep it dry.  If you look up the chemistry, you'll find it contains H2O.

So how do you keep a belt or other items worn on the body and especially sweaty, hot, humid conditions?  That's really the problem you have to sort out.

 

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, JamesRiley said:

Thinking out loud, fishing for insight:

I searched the term "verdigris" on this web site and came up with an overwhelming number of hits.  A serious researcher would read all of it.  And maybe I should, and maybe I will.  A "last word" stickie from an expert would be great, but I didn't see one.  Regardless, that won't stop me from running my key board before I start reading.  Sorry.

I hate verdigris.  But I love brass, especially tarnished brass.  I think it looks better on saddles, tack, gun cartridges' and everything else.  I like brass like I like dark brown leather.  I don't seem to have a problem with it on horse tack, but I do with cartridge belts.  I don't know why there's a difference.  I've taken to using nickel plated shell cases but I don't like the look.  It looks too B Western Hollywood to me.  While some folks just keep their loops empty until they go out, I like to keep all my loops full, if only for wall-hangers.

I thought I once read that vegetable tanned leather won't develop verdigris, but I don't know if that is true.  Regardless, even if so, I usually dye my leather, neatsfoot oil, etc. and wonder if some additions won't create a problem while others do.  I've heard some suggestions on gun sites for coating the cartridges with this or that.  No thanks.  I like the brass to patina.

In the end, I'd like a type of leather tanning, and a type of coloration or antiquing and preservation that will not develop verdigris when my brass cartridges are left in the loops for years.

In re-reading what I wrote, I probably should add that I really don't hate verdigris for what it looks like.  I hate it because sticking gummed up rounds in your weapon is not a good thing for a number of reasons.

Thanks for reading.  

Your lucky Wyoming is pretty dry so its not as much of a problem as more humid parts of the world. The acids in the leather reacts to humidity and you cant do much to stop it veg tan has tannic acid in it. I don't store firearms or ammo like that anymore but you sure can if you want. You will have to check it once in awhile and replace or clean the rounds, really the only way to prevent the stuff is good periodic maintenance and that is a necessity with the firearm as well. Moths and other bugs are notorious for getting inside a gun barrel and dyeing, when they do they can ruin the rifling, throat or cylinder for that matter in short order. so if your holster is open toe  its something to think about also.  I don't polish my brass before reloading so it always has a patina lol. Good luck friend. 

[JamesRiley]

I read everything on the board that came up with the word "verdigris."  Had I not been so lazy, I would have created a "white paper", synthesizing it all for a single spot.  But alas, I'm lazy.  Suffice it to say, Northmount and chuck123wapati are correct.  There are several different things you can try, different coatings, different leathers and whatnot, but in the end, it's not worth my fight to try/do it all.  I'm lucky to live in a high, dry environment and things aren't all that bad.  I'll either keep nickel in the stuff I display, or I'll "tend to and clean up" the rest on a periodic basis.  I'm really just trying to keep gunk out of my guns and make sure the shell casings don't degrade beyond safe shooting/reloading.  The real answer?  Shoot all your ammo and keep buying more.  Tip o the hat to Bill Gates and thems what can afford it.  LOL! 

[RemingtonSteel]

So just to be clear, your saying you don't like my pretty verdigris cartridges. I'll have you know that it took me well over a year of sitting on my butt waiting for it develop just to get it to this stage. Geez, either there is just no accounting for art appreciation, or turquois is not your most favorite color. 

[JamesRiley]

Yeah,. . .  no.  LOL!  Eye, beholder, etc.  I could actually live with it, cept'n the lock up in my 45-70.  It was in two 100 round bandoliers for over 20 years.  I managed to clean it all off but it wasn't fun.  I just started reloading about a year ago and discovered that any thing more than brass in a die can dent your brass, too.  I didn't know tolerances and such were so picky.  I'm a larnin.

[RemingtonSteel]

Yeah, due to the virus, I haven't shot for just about a year now.  It is interesting, that the six .38 cartridges that sit in my shotgun belt and are used for on the clock reloads all pretty much look like this.  The ones that are in my gun belt look pretty much like they did the day I reloaded them.  Both my shell and gun belts were made from the same side of leather, as well as being stained and finished they same way.  Not sure why those six from the shell belt have developed verdigris while the ones in my gun belt did not, as they were hanging right next to each other. From now on though, if I have to take any time off between matches, I am going to take the cartridges out before I put the belt in storage.

Now that the restrictions have lightened up and we can get back to shooting, I am not sure if I will yet. I have been trying to find small pistol primers, and there are none to be had in the stores or online, not to mention the inflated price even if I could find some.

Edited March 30, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[JamesRiley]

When I saw .22 going for 20 cents a pop I like to throw up in my mouth.  I didn't want to see what had happened to .45 Colt, ACP and 45-70.  But I looked and I did throw up.  I do have a stick bow with some arrows, so . . . maybe it's time to revisit archery.  And you know, I've got a little money, but it's the principle of the damn thing.  Oh well, I guess it's the market.

[RemingtonSteel]

18 hours ago, JamesRiley said:

.22 going for 20 cents a pop

Peanuts... how about this: .38 cowboy loads 500 for $1,500... that $3 a pop.  Had to include a picture cause I didn't want you to think I was pulling your leg.

Sorry to the rest of you all leather workers for getting a little off topic, but many of us here are into Cowboy Action Shooting, and yes guns in general.

Edited March 30, 2021 by RemingtonSteel

[JamesRiley]

15 minutes ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Peanuts... how about this: .38 cowboy loads 500 for $1,500... that $3 a pop.  Had to include a picture cause I didn't want you to think I was pulling your leg.

Insane! 

[fredk]

22 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

So just to be clear, your saying you don't like my pretty verdigris cartridges. I'll have you know that it took me well over a year of sitting on my butt waiting for it develop just to get it to this stage. Geez, either there is just no accounting for art appreciation, or turquois is not your most favorite color. 

That is interesting. I wonder if it has anything to do with the amount of copper in the alloy.

Last year a friend found two boxes of Mauser rifle cartridges. About 26 rounds total The boxes had been hidden in a dis-used chimney in a cottage. Papers with them indicated they had been put there about 1912. No verdigris on the shells, just dull tarnishing

[JamesRiley]

4 hours ago, fredk said:

That is interesting. I wonder if it has anything to do with the amount of copper in the alloy.

Last year a friend found two boxes of Mauser rifle cartridges. About 26 rounds total The boxes had been hidden in a dis-used chimney in a cottage. Papers with them indicated they had been put there about 1912. No verdigris on the shells, just dull tarnishing

I think it has something to do with the leather.  I've seen cartridges' that are more than a hundred years old in a cardboard box with no verdigris.  

[Davm]

I wasn't sure whether the verdigris adversely effected the strength of brass cartridges.  I polished my 45 Colt cases and used them- no problem but I then cut up wood dowels and keep them in the bullet loops. If you don't the loops tend to shrink and make it more difficult to put in cartridges. I have never found a way to stop verdigris so I sew more than rivet on my leather work.

[RemingtonSteel]

6 hours ago, Davm said:

I wasn't sure whether the verdigris adversely effected the strength of brass cartridges.  I polished my 45 Colt cases and used them- no problem but I then cut up wood dowels and keep them in the bullet loops. If you don't the loops tend to shrink and make it more difficult to put in cartridges. I have never found a way to stop verdigris so I sew more than rivet on my leather work.

There is Corrosion and there is Oxidation. 

Corrosion on brass generally happens when brass is exposed to water for long periods of time. It is generally identified by reddish or pink splotches on the surface.  Corrosion can and will weaken brass over time, so brass fittings on boats for an example should be cleaned, polished, and protected with a polyurethane or lacquer to protect them (but more often they are not.)

Oxidation on brass happens over time as the brass is exposed to air. Oxidation can appear as a blackish, green, or blue patina on the surface of the brass. The patina in no way diminishes the strength of the brass, and has the beneficial effect of actually protecting brass from corrosion. Verdigris is (a type of heave duty) oxidation that is accelerated by the brass being also exposed to certain acids. Verdigris can be natural or man made and is often purposefully applied to brass artwork to protect it from the elements. This explains why most boat owners do not worry about keeping their brass clean, polished and protected, as the oxidation does that for them.

So to answer your question, I wouldn't worry about the verdigris effecting the strength of brass cartridges.  They are going to be weakened more by the process of shooting and reloading, which is stretching and then compressing the brass, over and over again. Over time your casings will spit, which is why it is suggested that you only reload them a certain number of times.  The bigger concern as stated by JamesRiley is do you want this gunk in your firearms?  Might be OK in a revolver, but I definitely would not want to run it through my lever action rifle.

Regarding the use of rivets... Not really sure it matters either way... personal preference I think.

I made this shell belt about three years ago.  This particular set of cartridges have been sitting in the loops for just over a year due to covid. As you can see lots of verdigris in just one year, but look at the copper rivets that I used to secure the loop ends to the belt. Almost three year in the same leather, and they are as shinny as the day I put them in.  I am not a chemist or metallurgist, so I can't explain why... maybe something to do with the zinc that is in the brass. Bottom line, there are plenty of old rigs in the book Packing Iron where the makers used rivets in addition to sewing on the billet and buckle straps for extra strength, and they have stood the test of time... so put em in if you like them or leave em out if you don't.