Singer 52w22 questions

[AlizabethThomas]

Just got my first post bed head, a 52w22 from 1941. I have bobbin questions. The bobbin appears on the parts list as #203208, which Cutex sewing supplies has on Ebay. The sides have the right shape, but my model number isn't listed, and they look too wide. I've messaged them asking for diemnsions. Mine came with a couple prewound paper ones in it, one was still pretty full and measurements are 10.45mm wide x 21.7 mm O.D. I guess the part number is probably correct to the machine since it's right out of the Singer parts list. Just thought I would ask here if anyone knows for sure. One ebay listing with this part number, actual dimensions not listed.

The other question is about needles. I have a pair of needles here that both say "TORR 125" on the shank, and measure 40.5mm with an eye that is open from 34-35mm from the shank, and the scarf is scooped in the 30.5-33mm range. What size is this?

 

The top thread tensioner spring is thicker on the right side than the left. The roller runs closer to the left needle and someone had commented that their double needle set up like this had better tension on the left. Sounded like user error on tension to me, just one of my trivial pursuits I suppose, unless someone here knows if this is a thing.    

Edited April 24, 2021 by AlizabethThomas

[Constabulary]

TORR most likely is the manufacturer TORRINGTON NM 125 is the metric size for approx US size 20.

I assume the heavier spring is because they used it as 1 needle machine. Not really an issue - change the spring if it does not work for you.

Since you are here now - this is the list with the serial number once provided by Gregg from Keystone Sewing (RIP). Not everything has to be shared in FB groups IMO.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Constabulary

[AlizabethThomas]

3 hours ago, Constabulary said:

TORR most likely is the manufacturer TORRINGTON NM 125 is the metric size for approx US size 20.

 

yes- we are looking at a 125 in terms of hole/thread size, now I need to figure out what the other size info is. Last time I played with this was going from 29x3 needles to 29x4 ones in my 29-4 patcher. Seems like those weren't even the right size as I have to grind the shank shorter to eliminate skipped stitches. May have something to do with the downward-shimmed slack in the NB driving lever piston joint geometrically translating to far more than the shim's thickness, but I digress. I am now looking to find the other size info, and welcome the help of anyone who has done this. The shank is 1.72mm, the other missing bit of info from my end.

EDIT: I did a little reading on needle systems, and my head is still spinning, but I found out NM is a system. Are you sure NM is this system? You only stated what manufacturer it probably stood for, then we have the size for thread compatibility, which does appear to be 125 with this size held up to my other 120s. I'll look into systems next time I'm at my leather supplier.

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by AlizabethThomas

[AlizabethThomas]

found it on ISMACS database, FINALLY. that was excruciating looking for the needle size. The type of needle for this machine is *garbled transmission*

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128x4! I mean 128x3! I think!

Edited April 24, 2021 by AlizabethThomas

[Wizcrafts]

Usually/often/most times/sometimes - when a needle "system" comes in a -3 and a -4, the -3 is a round point and the -4 is some type of leather point. The round point is for cloth and synthetics. The other points are for leather. Sometimes I use -4 triangle points when I sew combinations of cloth and leather, like knit cuffs onto leather sleeves with a polyester lining. The tensions seem to balance better than with a same size round point -3 needle. The tri point doesn't fray the lining like a slicing point would.

[AlizabethThomas]

9 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Usually/often/most times/sometimes - when a needle "system" comes in a -3 and a -4, the -3 is a round point and the -4 is some type of leather point. The round point is for cloth and synthetics. The other points are for leather. Sometimes I use -4 triangle points when I sew combinations of cloth and leather, like knit cuffs onto leather sleeves with a polyester lining. The tensions seem to balance better than with a same size round point -3 needle. The tri point doesn't fray the lining like a slicing point would.

Thanks for the "tips", Wiz! ahahaha! Seriously though, that's good to know about the triangle points. Looks like this might be a difficult learning project on figuring out each chart for compatibility. Once I was reasonably sure I was sure I was sure what system/ type of needle, Ebay only turned up a couple choices, only in one listing I was sure enough to order some Organ needles in a leather point, offered in a two digit size format within the system type. Found the one for my most often used 92 thread. Once I get it sewing right on those, I'll order some more in other sizes and types. I never disliked the way the standard normal round point sews on the thin to medium leather I've used, perhaps there are advantages to leather point I have been overlooking. I got some aggressive chisel point leather needles one time but I think they were too big and I was sewing some chrome tan as toggle gussets on some nylon messenger bags I was making and didn't like the holes. But I'm learning a lot more now. 

[AlizabethThomas]

Wiz, the Organ needles on Ebay, the main listing I could find for this... 128 system, I guess it is... has Regular point needles in #16-#22 in even numbers, plus a #21 in each type, regular and leather point. Listed for 21w, 11w, and 51w, I have my fingers crossed the 52w is an extension of the 51w series, as there is not another listing with my machine listed. But since I got it sewing with this needle and it matches the measurements of that number, I should be good.

[DonInReno]

The thread exchange has a list of machines and their needles - it looks like they have some information on your machine - although somewhat cryptic.  :-) 

[DonInReno]

Organ’s catalog also has some interesting trivia if you haven’t thumbed through the pdf yet.

https://organ-needles.com/english/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2104_organ_catalog_HP.pdf

 

[AlizabethThomas]

Wanted to share the restoration results, and show the half of the hinge that I have missing it's tabletop counterparts. Hoping one of the regulars can tell me who to ask or how to acquire a set of these hinges. I might have to fabricate some if I can't find them quickly, the next step is to route the tabletop for the head. Also, I guess I could put it off a little while just by making only enough room for these parts of the hinge to clear for now, then route out to full size later when I have the parts. I have fit the bobbins inside the cases, they're taller than the prewounds that were inside, but the bobbin cases still snap on effortlessly. I also got the needles but I haven't tried them I only just got it to this point now after a full day of cleaning up masked edges and careful assembly of hardware.

[Constabulary]

Cooool - love it!

I hope you don´t overdo it with decals. You sometimes see machines where people add decals where there weren't some ex factory. IMO less is more. But it's of course a personal choice.

[AlizabethThomas]

3 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Cooool - love it!

I hope you don´t overdo it with decals. You sometimes see machines where people add decals where there weren't some ex factory. IMO less is more. But it's of course a personal choice.

It's completely finished here. I spend so much time looking for parts I actually need that decals and stuff like that are just a waste of time. I wanted something easy on the eyes, and logos don't help that look. Plus, since I had to sand and respray about 7 times, I'm not going to risk messing up the satin finish again with any kind of decal.  

[Wyowally]

Beautiful work, Elizabeth! Curious what paint and other products you used. I used Duplicolor wheel paint, satin. Constabulary - decals or not is a personal thing. I like to have minimal decals and don't care if they are perfect matches for what the factory did. I'm not doing a museum restore. Looks like this is Singer restore week here     Constabulary, you're probably aware, but here we have people doing "de-badging" - removing all the bling, badges, extra anything on the exterior of their vehicles. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Wyowally
typo

[AlizabethThomas]

1 hour ago, Wyowally said:

Beautiful work, Elizabeth! Curious what paint and other products you used. I used Duplicolor wheel paint, satin. 

 

Rustoleum satin, thinned with Xylene. It's what was in the old school spray paint and magic markers. Volatile enough to dry fast, viscous and stable like mineral spirits. None of that crazy brittling, curdling, or evaporating to the point of no longer knowing how thin it still is, or drying around the edges causing dry particles to form or redissolve from/back into the paint side effects like with lacquer thinner or acetone.

Edit: used 400-500 grit to featheredge after stripping the old outer layer of cheap oil. Under that was what seemed like powdercoat (sanding it produced a reddish powder reminiscent of a powdercoat primer I used to sand and paint at a factory job I had). Sanded reaally well and finished with 600 grit. When I used the 600 enough that it left no previous marks from coarser papers, it's marks were invisible under one sprayed coat. I did resort to paper as coarse as 220 to get rid of some major crusty layers, and paid dearly in redo time with the marks left.

Edited May 10, 2021 by AlizabethThomas

[shoepatcher]

contact Diamond Needle in NJ, the Organ distributor in the US about needles for the 52W22.  your needle system is indeed 128x3 rd point, 128x4 leather point.

 

glenn

Edited May 11, 2021 by shoepatcher

[AlizabethThomas]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:00 AM, shoepatcher said:

contact Diamond Needle in NJ, the Organ distributor in the US about needles for the 52W22.  your needle system is indeed 128x3 rd point, 128x4 leather point.

 

glenn

That's what I ordered, or was searching for when I bought this small sample pack I have here. It's going to take me a while to learn needle sizing equivalences. This pack says 128x22TRI. The thing that seems strange is that it has another short grooved area where the scarf would normally be cut out. The one needle in the machine had a scarf there, both sew. I'm not sure which one was more correct. My listing says 128x21 128x3 128x1128x22 for Singer 11w 21w1 51w where I purchased them (ebay) and has been the most reliable place to order. I looked at Diamond's website and they only allow me to purchase $32 of these at a time. It does also clarify 128x3 or 4 as, or give the conversion to, 128x22TRI there as well. I just wonder about the scarf. The cast, machined segments that make up the post of the machine are spaced a bit further apart than show in the old school hand-illustrated "stock photo" of it's manufacturing day, so I am thinking the hooks could be spaced to compensate for no scarf; couple MM on either side further from the needle. Note the gap/no gap in the photo collage. So I am cuirous about this feature of the machine and it's currently available needles compared to what was available originally; if there is a difference. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by AlizabethThomas
tried to make text all same size...

[shoepatcher]

early needles did not have a scarf.  You had  a long groove and a short grove where the scarf now is.

glenn

[Constabulary]

That's why I upgraded my 51w with a new needle bar so it can use 135x17 needles or generally common needles with a 2mm shaft. Almost all of my machines I have set up to 135x17 / 135x16 needles so I don´t have to stock different needle of all kind and sizes. Makes sewing life a bit easier

Edited May 16, 2021 by Constabulary

[AlizabethThomas]

12 hours ago, Constabulary said:

That's why I upgraded my 51w with a new needle bar so it can use 135x17 needles or generally common needles with a 2mm shaft. Almost all of my machines I have set up to 135x17 / 135x16 needles so I don´t have to stock different needle of all kind and sizes. Makes sewing life a bit easier

You showed us where to get the adapter for the laterally flat shank foot to the square post in another thread (which I will be adding to my cylinder bed sometime), can you show us what needle bar to buy? There is a guy who made a youtube video on the new style needle bar with threaded, screw-in needle block and timing reference marks etched into it, added to his needle feed double needle flat bed vintage industrial Singer. Just not sure which one to look for for our 51/52 series machines. Or the search criteria. I tend to spend way too much time looking, it's a confusing world of sewing machine parts out there. 

[Constabulary]

Do you have a link to that video? Screw in type needle holder is the most common nowadays. Well I do not know your needle bar. Is the needle holder replaceable - probably? If yes maybe you can just replace the needle holder and you are done. But I don´t know your machine...

If not then the NB diameter also matters. The timing marks do not work when you install the NB in a foreign machine but that does not really matter.

Well, a double needle machine is a different story. I have single needle machine and used a needle bar from a Dürkopp machine which I had in my spare parts box and because it was shorter than the OEM NB I had to install a longer NB Guide. I´m not sure if you want to go that way. It may require drilling out the casting if you cannot find a NB guide with the correct length and diameter.

If I was in your position and cannot replace the needle holder then I would look for a Singer 212 needle bar. I´m not sure maybe there is a double needle bar which is longer but I don´t know so my choice would be a Singer 212 NB. Then you need a needle holder with the correct needle distance that matches your needle plate.

Needle bar:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153445408972

For the needle holder you most likely have to buy a whole 212 gauge get with correct needle distance - not sure what your needle distance is

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142635430976

Edited May 17, 2021 by Constabulary

[AlizabethThomas]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:51 PM, Constabulary said:

Do you have a link to that video? Screw in type needle holder is the most common nowadays. Well I do not know your needle bar. Is the needle holder replaceable - probably? If yes maybe you can just replace the needle holder and you are done. But I don´t know your machine...

If not then the NB diameter also matters. The timing marks do not work when you install the NB in a foreign machine but that does not really matter.

Well, a double needle machine is a different story. I have single needle machine and used a needle bar from a Dürkopp machine which I had in my spare parts box and because it was shorter than the OEM NB I had to install a longer NB Guide. I´m not sure if you want to go that way. It may require drilling out the casting if you cannot find a NB guide with the correct length and diameter.

If I was in your position and cannot replace the needle holder then I would look for a Singer 212 needle bar. I´m not sure maybe there is a double needle bar which is longer but I don´t know so my choice would be a Singer 212 NB. Then you need a needle holder with the correct needle distance that matches your needle plate.

Needle bar:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153445408972

For the needle holder you most likely have to buy a whole 212 gauge get with correct needle distance - not sure what your needle distance is

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142635430976

I'll look into those options when and if I get tired of these type of needles, but not feeling the motivation as I have basics like getting the table routed to take care of first. Thank you for the leads on parts as usual. I'm glad you're part of the community, you're very knowledgeable and helpful, as well as entertaining. Here's the video, skip to 13:47 for the beginning of the needle bar talk, beginning with him saying the word "presser bar" (he misspeaks here without correction, he means to kick off the "needle bar" segment). Juki LH-515 is the model he quotes as being compatible with his machine but too long. I bet it would be the same for my cylinder bed singer 153w102 since it is a needle feed too, I'd have to do some measuring between that and my 52w...

tible o

Edited May 19, 2021 by AlizabethThomas

[DonInReno]

I bet you’ll like the Superior sewing catalog

https://supsew.cld.bz/Superior-Sewing-Digital-Master-Catalog

[AlizabethThomas]

I finally got the routing of the table done and it fits and is padded. The hinges are a lot of work as I excpected, since I wanted to fabricate my own. There'a another step to making them I didn't want to have to do but here I am. Hey, the guy I bought a set of table legs from had this Singer lamp he gave me. That's about all the logo I need, if i even keep it on there. It puts the light where the work is coming out, but I thought I'd try it. The light in the room is probably enough. Then I need to make an oil pan as well.