Tracym

Paul is super nice. He has been helping me with reconditioning a very old whip I inherited.

Knothead does gorgeous work!

Probably haha - I think the dogs are easier to train

Hahaha no, train the handlers to not DO that Seriously though, walking big dogs around on skinny leashes, anywhere beads and knots are just make a natural sort of "stop".

Thanks for all the ideas. I should have mentioned that I am using kangaroo leather, and pretty small strings. I'm doing ok with it, but trying to get things perfectly smooth and not too large is my challenge. I think cutting and gluing strips of leather is probably going to take too much time and maybe be a little beyond me. Also, knots on a dog lead take a lot of stress - the handlers tend to grab on to them. So I need them really well anchored to the braid.

So two things I'm looking for ideas about - anchoring knots to braids securely, and also building up the shape On dog leads, the knots take a fair amount of stress, I want to make sure they really don’t slide. For round knots, I can just do a 4-strand ring knot, then do a pineapple or gaucho or whatever over the knot. But covering the back braids, especially if I don’t want a lot of volume, or knots anchoring the beads where I’d prefer a flat shape – anyone have any other techniques to suggest? I put the strands used to build the pineapple thorugh the braid, but I’m not sure that will be good enough. I’m considering a couple 2-strand ring knots underneath to hopefully anchor it, without adding a lot of volume. Secondly, methods for building up a knot that is anchored. I’m going to try the 2-part epoxy method for sliding knots. But others I probably don’t want to be that hard. I believe I’ve heard of using waxed thread to build up a base for a knot? Alone? Or filling in gaps between other base knots? Any points on the technique used to do this, and advantages or disadvantages?

TXAG, I suspect the problem is where you are coming in to begin the 3rd pass (1st pass of the other color). Maybe if you post a photo of where you are starting that third pass (new color) someone could advise you?

Yay! Why does this knot remind me of "It takes a village..."

Can you tell now? You are following the string that is next to the standing string - i.e. the beginning of the 2nd pass I think.

Wow, very cool. So you add a pass either above or below another one - this is done a bit different than the video I saw. Interesting. So my original guess of doing the two black passes first, then the two other color passes was right. Just a note for TXAG - I think this is a smaller knot than the one you were originally looking at, but the theory is the same I'm sure. If I am understanding correctly looking at this - the photos start at the beginning of the 3rd pass. And you come in following the beginning of the 2nd pass to its right - so not following the standing string, but following the string NEXT to the standing string that is the beginning of the 2nd pass - correct?

Ah, that makes a lot of sense - I know you start of following the standing end, but when you turn, then you don't. So start it by just following the standing end - with the standing end on the left of your new strand. I think a type 1 pineapple knot is what we're generally looking at, another type (2?) is when the interweave actually goes outside the base knot - so you have two knots the same size. At least that's what I believe I read.

It's not just doubled though I don't believe, it's 4 different passes - i.e. 4 knots, not doubled

Good luck

You still have me guessing, but probably underneath the 3rd pass, along the standing end from the original knot. Doing the same as the 3rd pass, just going over/under 1 more each time.

OK, someone help out here if possible Now I'm thinking the base knot is black, 2nd pass is tan. Maybe working down then inside the knot - 3rd pass tan and 4th pass black? Here's a youtube of doing a 3rd pass

I believe that is the right knot, I'm glad you got that. I think you would just add a 3rd (and then 4th) pass the same as you would the 2nd pass, following the 2nd pass around, going over and under more strings as necessary. The problem is - using black and tan to make the pattern that he did - you would have to do 2 passes of black, then 2 passes of tan. Which for me anyway, makes it harder to follow what I'm doing doing 2 passes of the same color. So main knot black, pineapple interweave pass black, 3rd pass tan, 4th pass tan. Perhaps practice using 4 different colors so you can see what you're doing, make notes, and then do it with the colors as he did.

Gah, I can't get the numbers right to save my life today - again I am SO sorry. It's a complete FOUR bight knot at figure 15. Six bight when complete. You're welcome. The way those expansion passes work, it seems, you can just keep repeating that to make as big of a "square" turkshead as you want (square meaning the number of bights and parts are only 1 apart). Oh, and the two kinds of pineapple knots that I noticed (there could be more) is the one used in the knot you like, and what I'm talking about - the 2nd (and subsequent) passes stay inside the main knot, so are smaller than the main knot - 2 fewer parts - and go under the "X" at both ends of the knot. A different type continues out the top side of the knot, and is the exact same size as the original knot - in that case, you'd go under the "X" at the bottom, but not at the top (you'd go outside the main knot instead).

Hang in there, eventually it 'clicks'.

In the Gail Haught's turkshead (I think you have that one), where she ends up showing the 7 x 6 Turkshead, it is a complete 6 bight knot at figure 15. Figures 16 onward are an expansion pass. You can see the parallels, and how on an expansion pass, they are split in the same direction as themselves. So the 5 x 4 becomes a 7 x 6. If you simply repeat steps 15 onwards a second time then, it becomes 9 x 7. If you wanted it bigger, you'd just keep going.

What I've seen as the basic interweave for the pineapple knot is - if you are holding the knot so the mandrel is sideways - the standing string is sticking out to your left. Your new string enters the knot just below the standing string, and follows the standing string up (to the right) o1 u1 however many times until you reach the top and go under the X, staying inside the original knot. Then the same down. Just continue that, but whenever you find two that are a pair (parallel) the original and new string, you split them. This is what I think Bucksnort is talking about - the interweave is basically the same no matter the size of the knot. The interweave will have 2 less parts than the original knot. I think I would have had to start on a really large mandrel, or use narrower lace, as 4 passes needs a LOT of room.

Well it would help if I could type - I'm so sorry, I corrected my post above - it is 9 part 8 bight turkshead.

I believe I figured it out mostly, posted on the other thread about this one 8 bight 9 part turkshead, 4 pass, I believe. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, I think I know what it is. Once the pattern is correct in 2 passes, you just then need to go on adding 2 more parallel passes, each "above" the last one. My problem is keeping the dang thing loose enough to allow that much room - I bet this is one where pins on the mandrel might be helpful. I believe it is a 9 part 8 bight turkshead. What I have now looks the same, but without the extra passes. What I did was the following: Using Gail Hought’s basic turkshead – starts off as 4 bight, then an expansion pass (creating “railroad tracks” then splitting them on the parallel, creates a “standard” 7 part 6 bight turkshead. Then, I just did one more expansion pass exactly the same way – railroad tracks next to the standing string, splitting on parallel – this yielded a 9 part 8 bight turkshead. Then, I just did a standard herringbone/pineapple interweave – follow the standing end on the right of the standing end, going under the X at top and bottom of the knot. Split any parallels you come across crosswise. When you are splitting the parallels, do the same thing to the original strings as the string you are following, do the opposite to the new string. Does this sound right folks? And any tricks for keeping this knot loose enough to allow for 4 passes?

ok, a 7 x 6 turkshead would give me two light colored "stripes" going across, so I'm going to guess I need 8 parts? Still working...

I've been trying to figure out the "logic" behind the critters, instead of just following a pattern. I'm going to give this one a try. Since he said it is 4 pass, I'm pretty sure from looking at the photo it is 5 part. My guess is 7 bight. I'll see if I can do it (oops thought 4 part, changed it to I think 5 part)