Yonatan

Nice job!

www.confederatesaddles.com Examples of Confederate "Texas Saddles": Below, Texas saddle found at the site of the Battle of Perryville, Kentucky: General Johnston's Texas saddle: General John Hunt Morgan's Texas Saddle, Kentucky Confederate Cavalry

Beautiful and great find, Harrison. Thanks very much for posting it. My first guess is that it's a Confederate "Texas Saddle", in use by rebel forces west of the Mississippi. Similar to the Hope saddle. Most people don't know this, but Southern California broke with Northern California, and joined the Confederacy. About the time the war broke out, Los Angeles sent mounted forces to Texas, where the Los Angeles forces met with their Texan brethren, and together they rode to Virginia to meet up with General Robert E. Lee, who made the leader of the Los Angeles mounted forces a general. So it's not unlikely that some California and Texas saddles are still hidden in some old barns over there in Virginia. I'll be very interested to see what others have to say about this fine old rig. I could be wrong about my guess. I'm posting this without reviewing any history books or saddle references. JD

Here are a few more examples of modified McClellans from Latin America. These two are from Costa Rica:

Mighty fine work, Brent.. EXTRA fine.. JD

Oops!! That should have been "cantle"

David, it might have been a Jenny, sure. Either it was a McClellan with the fork raised to a sharper point, or a Jenny with the cantel modified. One way or another. And, BTW, they do make their own McClellan trees down there. And, like I said, they sure are fond of tinkering with them .. JD

No, Pella. I don't live in South America. I just happen to know about their differnt types of saddles. I own a lot of traditional McClellan saddles too, so I've taken an interest in the various ways in which they've been modified here and there.

Here's an example of a Colombian "tereque" saddle. Of course, it's a much new model. And they just LOVE to keep tinkering with them every season.. So it's hard to find a brand new model identical to that old "Iberian" saddle you posted up above. But if I had the time, I bet I could dig up a shot of one just like yours, from years ago.

Pella, I posted my thoughts about your saddle on the "Vintage Saddle" thread, by mistake--I was reading both threads. So I'll repeat myself here and say once again, that I think your saddle is South American, probably Colombian, built on a modified McClellan tree. Compare the details to other modified McClellans used in northern South America and Central America. You can see that the riggin style is identical to most Colombian saddles too. The fork on your saddle comes to a higher, sharper point on top. But strip off the leather in your mind's eye, and I think you'll easily be able to picture a basic McClellan tree, again, with some modifications. Compare the style of border stamping with Colombian saddles, and I think you'll see the similarity there as well. JD

Pella, I'd say CurbStrap 2 is right--it's a South American saddle, probably from Colombia from the details and looks of it.. They ride modified McClellans down there. And that's the riggin they use too. JD

Association saddles, and modified association saddles, refer to the exact model saddle tree they are built on. There are association trees, and modified association trees. If I'm not mistaken, the name "association" comes from the rodeo association that designates this particular tree as the standard for rodeo events. There are alot of people here with strong rodeo backgrounds who are far more capable of answering your question than I am. They can explain the specifics regarding the association tree's fork dimensions, and what makes it perform the way it does, what makes it functionally unique.

Classic. Clean balanced lines. Well executed in every way.

Thanks for sharing the 3B with us, Steve. It's a beauty. Do you find there's uniformity among the various tree sources you have for those Visalia 3bs? The fork on this one looks really true, correct, classic. I hate to bother you, but if it's not too much trouble could you post a shot of a bare naked 3B tree that you consider absolutely true to the original Visalia specs? That would be mighty helpful to me, and maybe for others too. Thanks again. Your work is outstanding. That old time California feel comes through real strong.

Real nice work. Nice round skirts. Nice carving. Nice everything. I'd like to see some of your 3Bs too.

Real nice work. Clean balanced lines and stamping. Nice contrasts, not overdone. And the loop seat worked out real pretty on this one. What method did you use to hang the stirrup leathers?

Nice work, Penske. Do you use hides tanned in Veracruz?

Someone just posted photos of a knife they made with and Osage handle. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...amp;#entry48175 Some northern tribes used to trade with Indians from the southern plains for Orange Osage staves, because Osage was so highly regarding for making bows. Y

Sorry, I mixed contexts and neglected to mention that the thread where Darc posted those photos was "Rider Position on Horse", or a subject titled something pretty close to it. Jennifer, please go check out those pics. The specific saddle of Darc's I mentioned is second up from the bottom, if I'm not mistaken. You can be sure that the quality craftsmanship visible on the surface of the saddle runs through and through, all the way down to the maker's choice of tree, and treemaker.

Jon, Great information, lots of food for thought, and plenty of material for experimentation. Is there a LOW TECH way to go with glass that has integrity? Jennifer, I hope you've been following these posts, because it should be heartening to see the way top notch treemakers cope with the kinds of conditions that can haunt craftsmen in any generation--at any given time and place various limitations can arise. But our generation's GREAT custom treemakers (not referring to factory production) are in this for the love of it, and they work hard with tremendous ingenuity to make certain their work is the very best it can be. As Greg stated, today we've got a line up of outstanding treemakers. That goes for custom saddlemakers too, I'll add. Folks that build trees and saddles for working buckaroos and buqueras don't cut corners--they strive for excellence, and they are always growing. For sure, any recreational rider who orders a saddle from these makers are doing the very best for themselves and for the horses they ride. Old growth wood is amazing. But contemporary lamination methods applied correctly, correct mortise work, and the finest choice in rawhide will compensate for any inherent inferiority in new growth wood. Darc, Awesome work on your brown Visalia in the photo. Incredible detail. I think you posted photos of it before the crash--I meant to comment on it back then, but I shied away from posting at that time. I hope you continue to pursue these fine California saddles. If I can just get it together enough to upload photos, I've got some old classics to post for you. Y

Darc, Thanks for taking the effort to post those fine photos. In response to your question about seat length and the rider's position, it's my understanding that once the modern seat came into being, say around the 1920s, the seats got longer. That high rise up front, together with the lower deep dish cantle, made the greater seat length necessary. Sit one of those older saddles in the photos you posted and you just might find you can go with a shorter seat. As I said before, I go for the old time seat, the kind Stormes is advocating. The low point is about 3/4 down from the fork, but it's subtle, like the Loomis saddle he's got in his article. I like the cantle shallow dished, shovel or spade, so I don't sink back. It keeps me in balance for natural movement and shifting weight. I ride from the seat. I don't need the room to slide back and forth. It's my weight that moves front and back, not really my body. The slick fork gives me the freedom I need. And no buck rolls for me. No double rig either. Staying centered gives me all the security I need. The only time I feel that cantle is a slight contact, just a reminder that it's there. Same holds true up front in a narrow Visalia tree, or a McClellan. The fork on a Visalia is angled higher than it is on a Wade, and that's what I like. Just the hint of the fork rising gives my inner thighs what I need, even in steep country. If my seat was more fashionably long I'd lose that feel. So I've learned to trust a slightly shorter seat, as long as I'm riding the kind of seat I've described. In fact, it's just this feel that drove me to making my own gear, from a - z. I can't afford to wait for years and pay alot of money I don't have for another rig that just doesn't have it. It's not a padded seat, or a longer seat, that makes for comfort. It's a "just right" seat, a correct seat that does it for me. Yonatan

In California there's a tradition that says the old time California vaqueros wore their spurs buckled on the inside of their legs, and Texas cowboys wore theirs buckled toward the outer side. That's what I used to hear, maybe others can verify that claim, or debunk it. Y

I'm with Greg on Chuck Stormes' study. I suspect the old time California seat reflects the fact that the vaqueros, "los viejos", rode a balance between "a la jinete" and "a la brida". Like Mr Redding was saying, you ride the rough country, and work horseback, you need to adjust to reality, as opposed to getting too theoretical. It's unnatural to force only kind of seat, unless you're riding in an arena, and sticking to one discipline, or one sport event. There are times when sitting forward will send you flying. And there are times when you move your weight forward and over the withers if you care about your horse, like when you've got to scramble up a steep canyon wall. The kind of seat that Stormes is talking about will set you up for both jinete and brida modes. I also agree with Alan's observation about the way a California slick fork helps you keep the jinete mode. But I'd just add this: the slick fork helps me make the transitions I need, both forward AND back. Another observation relates to something Alan said on another post, maybe at another forum too--it has to do with dish. The newer deeper dished cantle styles can get you stuck. The older style shovel and spades (I find) go together with the center seat for that subtle shift a rider needs to make, forward and back, in various situations and conditions. I find that the shallow dish keeps my tail bone tucked in, right where I need it, as opposed to sunk back too deeply toward the cantle. Anyway, flowing between jinete and brida is where it's at for me. I don't like too much rise ahead, or too deep a dish behind. It's a matter of instinct and feel, and having the freedom to move with the horse's action, and the job at hand.

Thanks, Jon. I was wondering, because when I googled the West System I noticed that there are ways to use the stuff to join parts together, like bolts. Years ago I bought a tree covered in "Tuff Cote". My impression was that it was nowhere close to being as strong as traditional rawhide. The tree was light weight and sealed well against moisture. But I wouldn't want to rope off one of them. Again, that's just my impression, completely untested. Y

Thanks for your replies, Jon and Adam. Jon, when you say you use the West System to glue the tree parts together, are you talking about lamination as well as the fork and cantle mortises? Thanks, Y