jonwatsabaugh

Tim, I wanted to offer a couple of tips on your in skirt. First, make sure you cut a deep enough stitch groove so your thread won't suffer from abrasion and glue your top piece really well to the skirt. Secondly concerns the selection of rigging plates available. I use the 5053 plate a lot, but I prefer the 550 rivet-in flat ring. They are very strong because they are a continuous ring, and there is much more room to maneuver the latigo through the plate. Four rivet holes are pre-drilled. You can get these from Herb Bork, Boise Foundry, and Harwood. Harwood is the only one I know of that offer these in stainless. I've attached a pic of a saddle I built using the 550. Jon

I, like Andy, use stainless ring shank nails to nail rawhide to my trees. I use them sparingly in saddle construction though, because once you get them started they ain't comin' out. I use them in places that will never show, but I don't think you will have a problem with discoloration. They are made by Swan Secure for the marine industry and I get mine through a dealer in Louisiana. Give Albert Bordes a call at 504-756-6441 and he will fix you up. Keep in mind these ain't cheap and you will probably have to by a ten pound box of them. Jon

GH brought up that age old question, "How close does it really have to be?" Ah, this is the one we wrestle with, the one we agonize over, the one that sometimes causes us to break out in a cold sweat. There are so many ways to approach this question, and most of the time we over think the issue. Years ago I worked for a company that was trying to implement Statistical Process Control into the whole company system. It was an intense process of data collection for analysis to improve production and hence the bottom line. It never worked for them, though, because of apathy and lack of conviction among the staff. It was a very time consuming and complicated process. I guess I have adopted a stripped down, highly simplified version of this for myself. This system is nothing more than sampling a large group and arriving at a “mean” or what I consider a compromise. This is where I came up with that term “base line”. My data to arrive at base line, however, does not include what I consider junk horses. I wish one size fit all but it doesn't. I think it only reasonable though, to restrict the number of base lines in a system or you loose order and control over it. Will there be times I step way outside the mean? Probably, but I hope its a rare occasion. For example, this past summer I sent a tree in the wood through a third party to the end user who happened to live in Colorado. Third party contacted me and said it didn't look good on two of the three horses it was fit to. I said OK, let me take a look at some good pics. Got tree and pics back...he was right. All three horses were mature in structure, two were very broad with protruding shoulder muscling, and probably were not ridden very hard. My intuition told me this is the condition they probably would remain in. One horse was acceptable with the base line but the other two required much more rock , more flair, and wider bar spacing. What's a guy to do? Right wrong or indifferent, I fit the two larger horses and let it go. The horse closer to base line could carry saddle and rider much better with this saddle than the other two could with a base line tree. All things considered, this was my intuitive response. As time goes on I'm sure there will come an occasion where I will decline the job. These are always tough decisions, but if I think I can be all things to all people I'm only fooling myself. An area of importance that has only been briefly mentioned is padding. This is a discussion that could be carried to infinity also. To date I haven't had any experience with the equimeasure system. I can visualize it working fine as long as it was accurately molded and arrived undistorted. I would want to pack this thing really well. U.P.S. isn't very kind to packages sometimes. Still not real interested in fittin' to that unless it's close to my base line, but as you read earlier, I've already broken that rule. As far as the back map goes, my idea was to make a fiberglass mold from the bottom side of the bars from an assembled tree and make a casting from that to send out. Kinda like what Steele does... I wasn't very clear about that. Jon

Troy, Good to hear from you again! I love your good ole Texas boy analogy. Dito on everything you said! Your creativity and artistry always amaze me. Come on over to the saddle makers forum and get aquanted. That just don't sound right comin' from a computer doe's it? Jon

Well I'm back (probably to the dismay of many!), but here goes. Granted, I've only built about 175 saddles, and about 100 trees (a hand full of those ending up as firewood) and many of you have got a lot more building experience than I, so for what it's worth here is my statement of faith regarding saddle trees and new customers. To date I've only built a handful of trees for other makers. The vast majority, has been trees built for the saddles I build. This will change dramatically throughout the next year as I make the transition to building for other makers. Now, what I have done to date has worked pretty well, but I will probably fine tune the process as I move along. For me, as well as the customer, simplicity is key to the initiation of a new working relationship. My primary business to date has been with well bred quarter horses, mules, and an occasional Morgan. Since my sampling has been more with quarter types and mules than all else, I have established a base line to start with (I'm sure you guys hate that term by now!). I prefer to send out a base line tree in the wood for the customer's evaluation. Now keep in mind I do have a number of base line bar designs, ( I don't think I had made this clear till now) so I'll send out the one closest to their description of animal and job for which it will be used. From this we can evaluate what modifications need to be made if any. The beauty of building hand made trees is the ability to make changes to the bars, record them, and faithfully repeat that process the next time around without having 150 patterns hanging on the wall. Way cool, I love this job! Sending out trees in the wood is somewhat risky but I haven't had any problems getting them back to date. Pictures are required in this process so I can make my own evaluation. As an example, last spring I sent a tree to a customer in North Carolina to try on her mule. She sent back a video on DVD, wow was that cool! She did everything I needed. Saw the mule, tree on back, squared up at static, led him off at a walk, bent him hard left then hard right at a walk...told a good story! DVD good, not necessary, but if there is a large distance between you and me, I need good clear pictures from several different angles. As a quick side note I have heard of other tree makers using their standard bar, changing the front angle and bar spread and try to pass this off as a mule tree...ain't gonna work. From all this, discussion can be had as to final mods, if any, to rock, twist, flair, and convex profile of the front and rear bar pads ( I won't negotiate much on the bar profile). The maker can also tell me about any features they like on the top side of the bars. This also enables them to see the quality of the structure they will be building on. So to sum it up, talk, send tree, get pictures and tree back, talk. All tree info ends up in a data base. In conclusion, I want to thank Dave and Rod for all the education. Dave, I think I'm beginning to understand your science on this. When I have some time, I'm going to go back and study all your earlier posts and try to clarify in my own mind your studies. Not sure if I agree with you yet, but obviously it works extremely well for the disciplines you build for. I do have convictions about static fit but I'm always listening. I know you cringe at the thought of classifying horses by breed, but for now I just need it as a point of reference. I like the idea of your “back map” and have considered molding my base lines in fiberglass. Both you guys are very eloquent on this subject. Maybe intuition has played to large a part of my process, and I probably should apply more science to my approach, but I've got a lot of saddles in the arena and on the pasture and everything to date is working pretty good . I think more than we realize we end up with similar results. My literary skills most of the time stink, but I hope I've conveyed somewhat of a light hearted approach to my summation. Again a sincere thanks to the educational process. Jon

I'll be weighing in on this soon. My typing is painfully slow. Just haven't had the time to sit down and write it out. Jon

I still think a customer appreciates the attention to detail in these areas, ballanced riding ability or not. I'll still take mine with less bulk please. Jon

Good comment about the inskirt Bob. I primarily use flat plate and inskirt rigging. If done properly, inskirts are very rugged, and will allow your fenders forward easily. Always use good leather in your skirt as well as the rigging leather. You will notice the bulk difference and a nice smooth flow from butt to heals. AS far as the flat plate, I use 9/10 Herman Oak For both the front piece and liner. Cut all these pieces out of the butt and you will end up with a very thin but very substantial rigging. I know this requires a lot of leather, but as I always say, "just good enough, just isn't good enough". Here is a pic of an inskirt I recently did. Jon

Dave In my reference to Dennis's card system, I meant that I would use it for my information only, using it to sample many horses, possibly two hundred or so only to fine tune my baseline standard. I am pretty confident though that this procedure would validate what I am presently doing. I would be interested to see if someone like Steve Mason orders his trees with varying factors on the bottom side of his bars, or if he prefers a standard set of dimensions and angles for all his trees. This may be something he may or may not be willing to discuss. I would completely understand if he defers discussion on this subject. Also I recently spoke with Jeremiah Watt and he is proposing the idea of putting together a saddle tree makers round table discussion. I would hope we could all leave such a meeting encouraged and inspired, minus the bloody noses! Jon

It seems as though the subject of micro-fitting is being discussed without saying the word. I thought everyone was trying to distance themselves from this practice. How far beyond your baseline standard will you venture and still consider your trees practical for those oblivious to what is sandwiched between the leather? What happens to that saddle 10 years down the road after it has been traded or sold and the information regarding the type of horse it fits has been long forgotten? I have the desire to get Dennis Lane's card system, but to only use it for sampling purposes. I know this is a bit off the subject but I felt all the information was leading up to this. Jon

Rod, It takes about 2 1/2 hours to lay up the prepreg I'm using. This is done with no secondary lay-ups, meaning all layers of cloth are layed up before any curing takes place. I believe this provides optimal performance, although most use secondary lay-ups with no problems. Most resin systems take a full 24 hrs for total curing. I'm currently experimenting with a U.V. cured resin that will obtain full cure in less that 5 min. using the proper light source. Jon

Many times we get hung up on the order of progression, and the types of tools we use for this or that when all the time we neglect the two most important aspects of Sheridan style tooling. First of all a beginning tooler must practice and master the use of their swivel knife. Each cut must be smooth with perfect transition from increasing to decreasing radius and visa-versa. This is accomplished with properly conditioned leather ( there are some great ideas found elsewhere on this sight regarding the casing of leather), a properly sharpened and polished blade, and of course much practice. Develop the ability to cut long flowing lines in your vine work with one continuous motion, starting with a deep cut and fading the cut to nothing. Secondly is the ability to develop and draw your own designs. You will learn more and much faster by studying the work of the masters such as Chester Hape, Jim Jackson, Keith Seidel, Don Butler and many others. Try and copy their work. I might suggest getting the book "Sheridan Style Carving" by Bob Likewise. This book is worth it's weight in gold. Study and follow the tutorials and the beautiful photos in this book. Everyone with the desire to learn Sheridan style tooling should have this book. It will inspire you! Happy tooling, Jon

I've got a couple of pictures of my rawhide covered trees I'll up load if I can figure this deal out. Hope it works. All I have is dial-up...it's brutally slow. I'm getting ready to make some glass encased trees in the next couple of weeks, I'll get a better camera and take some sharper pics. Jon

There may be a little misconception about the trees I build. The wooden framework is strictly a traditionally hand made, fully customizable tree built to your specs with a non-traditional outer reinforcement covering. I learned the basics from Kieth Gertch as did Rick Reed and Bill Bean. As for the wood fracturing and breaking apart within the rawhide I've seen this happen on several different occasions. As of late Luke Jones, a well known cutting and reining trainer in my area, brought a saddle into my shop to replace a broken tree. The fork, cantle, and both bars were all broke completely in half but the rawhide was completely in tact. Granted, this was a pretty bad wreck, but my point is that the wood frame was a totally inferior structure. I got to stick to my guns on the importance of each step in the saddle tree building process. All the custom makers I know of take great care in building a superior wood structure. By the way, my trees will sell for $465, not out of line for a handmade tree. Jon

BJ When people started using composites as a structure enhancing material to saddle trees, I doubt if a lot of thought was given to the materials used and the method to which it was applied. Basic fiberglassing, using a wet hand layup method is relatively easy to do, and Bondo brand cloth and resin is as close as you nearest hardware store. Even using these products can yield a very structurally sound unit but the study and practice with commercial materials and high tech layup methods will set a product apart in a totally different category. Apart from the chopper gun method (of which I had not considered in the first place) or the autoclave method which is used in aerospace and aircraft industries, I have experimented and been successful with vacuum infusion and laying up prepreg materials. Both methods facilitate good to excellent resin to cloth ratios of which is of extreme importance. This will result in a very thin, strong composite. Bruce, you mentioned a tree being triple epoxy dipped. If in fact an epoxy resin was used minus the cloth matrix, that covering would be totally useless. Interesting facts: The B-2 Stealth bomber frame and skin are carbon fiber. Twenty-six percent of the F-22 airframe is made of composite material Lockheed L-1011 uses 1,300 lbs of woven fabric in the vertical stabilizer, wings, and other components I could go on and on...catch my drift? Jon

I'm not sure what you mean by the wood being bound together by the shrinking rawhide. You can't compress the wood to make it more dense. If you need the rawhide to hold the wood together you have a very inadequate structure. As I mentioned earlier, carefull selection of materials is important, especialy the core being the wood. Many of the custom makers prefer yellow poplar (as I do) for the bars because of these excellent qualities 1) outstanding nail and screw holding abilities 2) clean straight grain 3) when dry it is very dimentionally stable 4) it is easy to machine. Take an old saddle apart that has a rawhide covered tree and you will find that the rawhide has little to no grip on the nails and screws. When removing them though I can tell you what kind of wood is beneath the rawhide, good or bad. Wood will be the material of choice for a long long time for a list of reasons to long to list. Remember, we are basicly precision slulptors. We need a material we can sculpt. Jon

Well I guess it's time for me to throw my hat in the ring and add my two cents worth. My name is Jon Watsabaugh from Des Moines, Iowa. I've been building saddles now for about 11 years, full time about 7. Four years ago I learned the basics of building handmade trees. From that basic introduction I was able to go forward with the R & D and develop the knowledge and skill necessary to build a premium tree. When I first started building saddles, I knew I wanted to someday build trees also. This aspect of our craft was as fascinating if not more so than saddle building to me. Over the past year I've decided to make the transition from building primarily saddles to saddle trees. I'm in the process of adding more woodworking equipment for production purposes and won't be in full production till about April. Now,I say all of that to say what follows. Over the past four years I've sewn a lot of rawhide, have even enjoyed learning this skill, but always knew there were other materials (man made) that were stronger and more durable. I fought the urge to even investigate. Why? Tradition. Tradition runs strong and true in this culture and it should. Rawhide will always keep it's place in our craft and I will never criticize any of the handmade makers or debate it's merit. I, on the other hand, have chosen a different path. Any structure is only as good as it's weakest link. In the aerospace industry, careful science is applied to each structural component. Composites (fiberglass, carbon fiber, arimids) are extensively used in key areas where structural integrity is vitally important. There are literally hundreds of cloth types and matrixes available, as well as a miriad of processes to use them. You have to be willing to go beyond the "hardware store" products and find and experiment with materials and application techniques to yield superior performance, all the time keeping your saddle maker in mind. These products can be made very thin and extraordinarily strong and durable. Using the right matrix (resins) will facilitate driving nails easily and will not "star" or crack the composite. Even if it does, structural integrity will not be compromised because of the design nature of the weave in the cloth. After much experimentation, I have decided fiberglass is for me. Now, briefly on the subject of pick-up bed liner. This stuff is a polyurea product. This industry is huge and I mean huge. It goes way way beyond pick-up bed liners and these products are really interesting. As with composites the formulations are nearly endless. As a key structural component though, I think it falls short. However as a final covering I know it ads many benefits. Incredible shock absorption characteristics are added as well as having a self-healing affect when nails are pulled making it water proof. The visual affect however is a big drawback to the traditionalist. I have found a company willing to formulate a polyurea for me sans pigmentation. The final look is somewhat translucent with an amber tint. Looks pretty good! So my choice for a topical finish is polyurea. The plural component system and impingement gun are a pretty hefty investment at $11,000, but I think the value added to my product is worth it. The finished tree becomes one unitized construction. No voids between product layers, each product used compliments the other, and finally a very nice finish void of humps and bumps making your saddle building a more joyful task. In conjuction with my production, it's always been a dream of mine to teach my skills to others. Maybe Saddle Tree University? More on that later. In conclusion, I would like to offer my sincere thanks to the creators and moderators of this sight. Also hats off to people like Rod and Denise, Steve Mason, Kieth Seidel,Jim Redding and the like for their willingness to share their knowledge and skill and take the time to do so! Jon