JRedding

It goes something like this, find or layout a pattern on paper so you're sure it's what you want, carve the borders, trace on the pattern, carve the floral you just traced, flower centers are first, pear shade the flower petals, then bevel the borders then the floral, then background and finish cut, that's an abbreviated version there's a lot of steps like veining, back shadowing, mules foot etc. that can be added in there but that's the shortened version of the steps I do. Even without hands on instruction from someone you can find work done by a good tooler and study it, what tools are used, and how they're used, can get you a long way on your own. Good Luck stick with it

Like I said it all works, you definitely get good results with your method, I learned the way I do it in large because I spent a couple decades in a saddle shop with four under construction all the time, and all the covering, uncovering, and waiting as you described didn't work very well with that much leather in front of me all the time, I've been in some of the finest shops in the country and seen both methods and a few things I never was sure what they were doing all produce great results. I've read Hidepounders method and it's a good one, you can see it in what he does. I gotta say though I've never seen anyone go through all those steps you described with a stack of saddle parts, they'd have never been able to go home. I learned what I do from a Japanese guy in Ft. Worth tooling at Ryon's shop at the stockyards when I worked for them. He would tool right handed non stop until his arm got tired of hammering and then change hands and tool left handed. He was paid by the saddle and did beautiful work but I assume that's why the not much waiting method was perfected.

It was too wet no big deal everybody starts too wet, everybody does it different, ya just have to find what works for you. I can give you my take on it, my methods on this are unconventional but they work, and I have my reasons for doing it like I do. Casing is widely known as the method to use and not saying it doesn't work it does I just don't do it. The theory behind casing is to let the moisture become consistent throughout the thickness of the leather, why ? your not tooling to the bottom, moisture clear to the bottom only lets it stretch more, if the portion you're not tooling into remains solid it helps limit stretch. And getting a good case on leather is a real moving target, every piece of leather is different, how pourous it is makes a huge variable, as to how much moisture it sucks in, and how much it try's to hold onto. Relative humidity is the other big variable, it reacts a lot different in Arizona than it does in Texas for sure, every seasonal change only adds to the equation. Some perfect it but it's time consuming to learn and cased leather is like having a milk cow, your on its schedule now. I just spray bottle it, first time I give it enough I think it went to tooling depth and let it sit until it almost appears dry, give it a light spray and get on with it, you do have to spray a little as you move along to maintain a consistent surface but it's no big deal to learn to judge it. Tool as dry as it will let you while still using a reasonable amount of force. Spraying allows you to easily read and adjust to every piece of leather you come across, and it's not demanding that you be right there when it's ready. That's long but it's not a small topic in leatherwork, hope that helps

Thank you all, but I have had a bit of an advantage, I did this full time for twenty years so I've dedicated a little more time to it than a lot of folks, I see many people with talent to do the same given the opportunity of that kind of time. And that belt isn't as difficult as it looks, it's really the simplest figure carving that can be done if you really look at it, the hardest part is the painting and dyeing .

You did the right thing, what is someone with beliefs like that doing dragging a dog around on a leash ? What about his rights ? How would she like to be on a leash ? BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, a lot like watching people come here to protest the oil and gas industry, nobody shows up riding their bike.

It appears to have been too moist, please tell how you wet your leather to prepare it and I can help you from there

It's been a while since I've frequented Leatherworker and I see a lot of new members I've never met so I thought I'd post a little of my work just to say hello again.

The easiest way to clean up a nasty flesh side is rough cut a piece larger than your project piece and just put it on a bench type belt sander, 100 or 120 usually does a nice finish, don't be shy just sand it until it cleans up, as long as you don't burn it you can't hurt it just clean it up, you can buy skirting that is sanded at the tannery made specifically for building rough out saddles, it's called " buffed " I think Hermann Oak is the only one I know of that does it but you can do any small piece just the same yourself

I've done a lot of hidden stitch binders except they were split and sewn through the bottom layer, I like to do them this way but I'm not sure about just glueing them down with no stitch. I don't know what the advantage of that would be since you're sewing it anyway. My question is are you absolutely sure it isn't split if done well it can be very hard to detect, and would you mind telling what the make is of the saddle that may reveal something as to the technique ?

I know a lot of people don't use them these days but using and mastering a good round knife will bring the best results with the least amount of work.

Thanks for all the effort it took to explain this to me, I've never worked the stuff and was interested how it was done and what the lasting results would be of a modification like this. Thanks again

I guess I need to rephrase my question, what attaches the bondo portion of this undertaking to the original saddle tree, it seems it would snap off fairly easy and be a floating loose piece of bondo hovering on top of the original cantle held in place only by the leather of the seat and cantle back.???

How do you intend to adhere the bondo portion of this to the narrow top edge of the cantle and not have it separate ?

I don't fully understand the process myself having never done it, my understanding is that it requires a specialized machine to do it properly. I've looked at the finished product of it and it's not something I could do in a plain old saddle shop by hand so I never took any further interest in studying it. The photo you posted is a very fine job I think, it doesn't appear to be bench made to me but more of a very good production belt. It does appear to be built over a beveled inner liner that I really like the looks of. Without being able to see it in person I'd guess it is three ply, the gator, the beveled inner core and a lining on the back. But that's just a guess, maybe that's something to research if you want that look.

I'll try to answer your questions with what I know about working exotics into belts, 9/10 oz. latigo plus probably 3oz. croc is going to be a really stiff, heavy belt. I'm assuming when you say gun belt you mean something normal not Dirty Harry huge so you may want to get the opinion of some of the guys who build a lot of gun belts on here my experience with gun belts is limited so I'd check that out with someone who knows more than I do before you begin.Any sharp knife will cut it o.k. I use a round knife for everything so that's my suggestion, I wouldn't try shears or scissors of any kind if you want a straight cut. If it's decent croc you shouldn't have to dress the back up before you use it. Most gator or croc belts are dress belts and the edges are skived, rolled and glued under pressure, no stitching at all. Working it into a two-ply belt and finishing the edge isn't something I'd recommend if you want a first rate job it doesn't burnish well, I've seen it done with tons of edge dye and dressing smoked into the edges but results are amatuar at best doing that, and it doesn't hold up well over time. I've made a lot of exotics into belts before and always made laced edge belts out of them for that reason so that may be something to consider doing instead of sewing and burnishing edges. Any finish dressing like Bag-Kote, Neat-Lac or something similair that you like will add a nice finished look when you're done Sure that didn't solve all your problems but maybe something in there will help..

I hope we've helped, you ask about trimming the excess, I just try to fit it as cleanly as possible under the cantle and work out the ripples before sewing it, I don't know about anyone else but mines skived about down to billfold weight by the time it reaches the stitch so it's fairly easy to tame. I can't seem to run a french edger without gouging something so I've learned to stand mine up and trim with a sharp knife, kind of like surgery for a minute but it's the only clean way I've mastered to do it. This is the kind of thing Bruce usually seems to have some neat trick for maybe he's got a suggestion.

LMAO,

Your beliefs that the men and women of our military do nothing to keep you safe, and our military "sucks" I'd be careful where you plop your soapbox down and start babbling that or you'll likely get a first hand lesson in violence from someone.You describe yourself as " A real animal activist working hard to affect change " let me guess, we shouldn't have a slaughterhouse for horses we should let them run free until they die of old age as long as it's not in Pennsylvania because you have nowhere to put them, some good ol' rancher somewhere should get his cows out of the way so it can be like you want it. I'm sure you spend all your spare time and money running a shelter for homeless dogs and cats in your back yard right ? I suspect you're the guy who tells everyone how it should be, even though you probably have no experience with livestock yourself. You've read up on the subject and you're gonna' educate all the poor dumb people who tend livestock for a living that they're doing it all wrong. My momma' taught me "never argue with an idiot " so I'm done with you pard'

In my opinion you're right about cutting a binder in a shape rather than a straight piece, it does add more leather to do something with on the underside. By shaping the straight piece to fit the top side of a cantle it naturally starts you in the right direction on the bottom. And learning to shape a straight piece onto a cantle saves waste during lay out and cutting. A lot of people use the shaped one and it works fine for them, I just like straight, I feel there is some advantage to the straight once you learn to work with it. I'd like to ask where on the hide most of you are choosing to cut a piece for a cantle binder though ?

This sounds familiar, I've had those moments it wasn't safe to open the door, but I may be able to help with this one. your leather selection and skiving sound pretty good to me I think you're difficulty may be in how you lay it down and where you're putting the extra leather left behind by shaping around the concave side of a binder. I usually give it a good pre-fit before I glue anything to make sure it's going to submit, this helps stop surprises like I didn't skive thin enough and now it's too late because I've glued it all up. Once you've taken you're best guess and you're ready don't start in the middle and work outward, this only creates more surplus leather to deal with the farther towards the cantle points you go. Rather than stretch it around a cantle you need to bunch it under the cantle, basically push the leather together to make it form a concave shape rather than try to stretch it all the way around and hope you don't have too much extra before you reach the end. Start at about the ten and two positions ( if you're standing behind it ) and work the leather inward towards the top center of the cantle, this should get you started in the right direction, then start below the ten and two positions and do the same, pushing it together rather than stretching it towards the cantle points. With the right leather choice, some moisture, and just a few minutes it should fit well. Just stop and think which way you need to work the leather to make it become concave under the binder and it's pretty self-explanatory really, you'll see which way to go. It's the same thing when shaping seats in, don't start trying to form leather into the dish of a seat by working it upward towards the cantle top, start at the top of the cantle and work downward, pushing more material into the dish will make it become a concave shape which is what you want when shaping into the dish. Basically anytime you need to form leather into a concave shape like seat dishes or under cantles, push don't pull. I hope this makes sense and cuts down on the frustration a little for you guys.

I really don't think anything that's done or said will change peoples behavior when it comes to something like this, I personally don't have a lot of faith that spreading your word of sunshine is going to grow a lot of pretty flowers and the world will become a beautiful place, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to believe what you do, I've just never seen it work. The sermon about violence never ends violence is another topic, please remember you yourself go to bed comfortably every night safe inside the borders of a country protected by a man with a gun watching over you, it's called our armed forces and like it or not violence is one of their specialties, it's what we fall back on when asking nicely fails.I'm not saying this to advocate the use of violence I'm just pointing out it serves a purpose and we all enjoy some freedoms provided by the old fashioned use of violence to stop violence, sometimes it is the only solution, that's been proven time and time again throughout history. I don't think that statement is very well thought out considering the freedom to have that opinion and voice it without fear was gifted to you by someone willing to use violence when it was necessary and appropriate.

I don't care what culture you're from or where on the globe you call home if you can do what is described in this incident and it doesn't bother you somewhere in your soul there is definately something wrong with you. And if that's the norm in your culture there's something wrong with all of you. I've hunted all my life, was raised on a place where if it was in the freezer we put it there ourselves, I've dispatched horses out of necessity, and pets out of kindness. And there is never a need to do it cruelly, I've been the cause of a lot of animals leaving this earth for one reason or another and even though I was taught to do it with kindness and respect it still stirs something in me and the day it doesn't I'll know there's something wrong with me. A person couldn't have much of a moral compass or they'd know this was wrong without being told, there's no defending this as a cultural thing, it's just an example of being a pathetic human being, neither your culture nor the continent you're standing on is an excuse for being a sorry human being. This kind of thing reminds me of when my granddad used to say " I'm not a religious man but I wouldn't dare do that" now I'll quit ranting and get off the soapbox it's someone elses turn.

Nice job. I don't know if you're interested but I noticed you said you're hands and elbows take a beating doing these, I've done covers like these for years, if you saddle soap you're bare stirrups a little before you start to slide the covers on and then once you've pushed them on as far as they'll go easy turn them upside down and thump the bottom of the stirrup with a rubber coated shot loaded hammer while holding the cover firmly you can tap them right on without any difficulty. Something like thumping the end of a hammer handle to drive the head on tight, and no beating up the hands and elbows. Hope that may make it easier some time.

All the saddles I've seen with this condition were usually cheap trophy saddles, the ones I've worked on for people can only be remedied to be better not good. They usually don't have an actual ground seat built in them it's a pre-formed (supposedly to fit your butt) fiberglass seat strainer / ground seat and when they're nailed in they sit so close to the bar there isn't enough room for the stirrup leather to hardly pass through let alone enough for it to swing and slide like it should. The only thing I've found to help is if it has a 3" stirrup leather you can convert it to a 2 1/2" , oil the heck out of them, if it's a cheapie like the ones I've worked on they're usually dry as popcorn, and trim the tops of the fenders down to a shape that will allow them to swing a little. If, and the key word is" If " it is a cheap saddle and that is the problem you really can't hurt the resale, they're not expensive to start with and worth less if they've been rode, it will resale better if you can cure it's problem than it will like it is with uncut fenders.

Here's my suggestion just based on what I do with saddle parts that have to be both formed and tooled, and I do this with holsters and sheaths I build. Soak and wet form you're piece, tack it down like you want it and get you're outside lines scribed, it's difficult to get you're tooling centered if you don't know where center is going to be when this is over. I leave it tacked a while just to let it relax into it's new shape a little but I pull it while it's still thoroughly soaked and flatten it back out for tooling. Now you have it basically pre-fit to shape, you're outside cut lines are scribed where they're going to be when it is formed, and you can tell which portion of it you want to tool and which portion you want to stay out of. Let it dry completely and then re wet it as you normally would to tool it and get your tooling done. On something like a sheath I wouldn't wet it by dipping it once it's tooled, no matter what you do once it's tooled too much moisture will turn your tooling loose, I use a spray bottle to dampen the whole thing front and back so you don't get any water marks but I put the moisture in it mostly from the backside with the spray bottle, this lets you get the moisture into the leather while leaving the tooling as dry and crisp as is possible. Once it's reasonably wet drop it back in place and do enough massage to form it back into place like it was the first time, it will go back into the pre-fit shape fairly easy since it's already been there once before. Tack it back down and leave it until it's completely dry this time. I know a lot of people like to use hot boxes to speed up the drying time but I never have, I like mine to have that time to sit and dry naturally, I think it gives the leather time to relax into it's new shape, maybe it doesn't matter but I just like to coax it rather than force it. Hope you can draw something from this that may help.