TroyWest

Yonatan was correct. In the 1930s some cowboys were being cheated by a stock contractor who didn't want to add their entry fees into the prize money. It took a long time for the cowboys to stick their necks out and complain but they eventually did and the contractor added the money. It was there they banned together and called themselves the Rodeo Cowboys Turtle Association, because it took a long time to stick their necks out. In the 1940s they changed their name to the RCA, Rodeo Cowboys Association. In 1975 they changed their name to the PRCA, Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association. In the early days guys were riding broncs on all kinds of saddles. Some had horns, some sawed them off, some had very large swells that really swept back and they felt the need to standardize a saddle. Hence they came up with a saddle that was approved by the "Association." That's why saddle bronc saddles look like they do and they are built on a tree now called an association. There are standards. I'm not sure all the exact specifics but something like a 14" wide swell with no more than 1" of undercut. They are usually built with a high gullet, like 9" so they stick up pretty high in the front end so a bronc rider can lock on with his thighs. Because it is a handsome front and a lot of guys like it they began making roping saddles with the same swell by modifying it, i.e., making a much lower gullet, and calling it a "modified" association, or a swell that doesn't stick up so high in the front end but has the same basic shape as a bronc saddle front. A lot of working cowboys in Tx. like a modified assoc. and calf ropers like them also lowering the gullet height even more and putting a leg cut on it, simply calling it a mod. assoc. with a leg cut. Hope that helps. Troy

The one on the left has been oiled, the one on the right, no oil, mahogany antique on both.

Oh, after I antique and let it dry, I go over it with Tankote, which will cut the antique slightly, but I lightly wipe it again with a paper towel to kill any streaks. Troy

Hey Wolvie, One of the things I do when I carve something is glass it first. You get your leather damp before you start tooling and go over it well with a glass slicker. You can get these from Barry King or Bob Douglas. This is very important to me especially if you are going to antique because it really closes the pores of the leather and makes it slicker so when you antique it does'nt penetrate those pores and give it a dirty look. I oil it to the color I want and if I want the greatest contrast I dont oil it at all. Then Neatlac or RTC (resist top coat) from Bee Natural Leather. I actually like to use 1 coat of Neatlac, let it dry, then 1 coat of RTC, and let it dry. I've found only 1 coat will usually allow a little bleed through, especially if the grain is open pores, which is why that slicking is so important. You can use 2 coats of either one. A lot of people can't take the Neatlac and it probably is destroying brain cells. You know, makes you forgetful and you repeat yourself. It hasn't affected me though. It hasn't affected me though. It hasn't affect.... oh, sorry. Then apply antique and wipe off with paper towels. I also dont like to let the antique sit on the areas I don't want antiqued for long as it can bleed through, especially if I've only used 1 coat of a resist. At any rate, here's a couple of brief cases I did a while back, about 17 x 12 and antiqued using this method. Hope this helps, Troy

Darc, I hate to change the subject, but your photo is so good, what kind of camera did you take that picture with?

Looks great Jon, good looking tree too.

David Andrews sells Andrews stainless hardware. Andrews Bit and Spur P.O. Box 5447 Laguna Park, Tx. 76644 254 622-8169

I appreciate Chuck Burrows comments as his experience with this is far greater than mine. I have seen a number of old saddles dyed this way that are 60 to 80 yrs. old and have held up perfectly well. These old saddles are put together with steel screws and nails and covered in silver and they are simply not coming apart or causing damage that is apparent anyway. I spoke with Shawn Farrow, Sean Farrow? I don't know how to spell it, anyway, a chemist for Sedgewicks in England and asked him about this method of dyeing leather. He thought it sounded like a great idea, stirred up the chemist inside him and said he was going to go home and make some himself. I also asked him about neutralizing with baking soda and he immediately said it wasn't necessary, just rinse in cold water. He started naming the ph of water and the ph of soda and frankly lost me in chemist language pretty quickly but again reiterated that rinsing in cold water was sufficient. He said they neutralize a lot of things at the leather plant in cold water only. I also asked if using distilled water was a good idea and he replied it too was completely unnecessary. The leather company uses the water that comes through the pipes. Just food for thought.

Ron, Your question intrigued me, I'd never heard that term, so I called Billy Cook, Sulphur and they didn't know and said they don't do that. I know the guy who runs the Greenville plant and he didn't know either . I said who would know? He said Dick Chambers, ceo Chattanooga might know. So I called him. He didn't know either. Suggested it might have been made for an individual named Rolling? There is the term rollback, which is done on horseback but I never heard it referred to as rolling. Well I just read Jennifers post before posting mine and she basically found out the same thing. Great minds think alike. Maybe your just supposed to set it on the back of the couch and roll off on the floor!...sorry Have a great day Troy

You're welcome, Troy

Billy Cook opened shop in Greenville, Tx. many yrs. ago after serving a time in the military where he had met Bill Potts. After a time they got together because Billy had the shop and Bill had the money. It became Billy Cook Saddlery/Potts Longhorn. The Billy Cook saddles were the upper line saddles, and Longhorn were the lower line. The Billy Cook saddles had better trees, Herman Oak leather, beveled stainless dees, hand tooling, and hand sewed rigs to skirts. Longhorn were lesser priced trees, regular stainless hardware, synthetic wool, and machine sewed rigs to skirts. Tooling patterns were often pressed by a huge press, which is what made a lot of those saddles really hard and stiff. The people that worked there were proud of their work and proud to work there and made one of the best production saddles of that day. Jay Lynn Gore was the head tooler there for many years. The tooling look of Billy Cook saddles was largely the work of Jay Lynn. Billy was the manager of this operation for many years, designing all the saddles, making patterns, and then having a complete set of dies made for every new design. Billy believes in dies. Billy later started another shop in downtown Greenville making harness. It was called Billy Cook Harness. Eventually he started making saddles there too. He would work at Longhorn in the morning and go to the harness shop in the afternoon. Billy Cook Saddlery/Potts Longhorn had coorporate offices in Dallas. In the late 80's Bill Potts passed away. The Co. continued to be run from Dallas. The co. had tons of orders but there was corporate embezzlement in Dallas and the co. went chapter 11, and then chapter 7. Everybody wanted to buy it and it went up for auction. Don Motsenbokker bought it. (I dont know if I spelled that right) Don was originally a bookkeeper for the Shoelkopf family. This was the family that used to make Jumbo Saddles. Don knew the saddle buisness and already owned Action, Tex Tan, Simco,which is in Chattanooga, Saddlesmith, and now Billy Cook Saddlery. He then advertised as the largest saddle co. in the world, which he probably was. That is how Simco and Longhorn came to be associated. Simco is still in Chattanooga, Longhorn is still in Greenville, Tx. They did combine the coorporate offices in Chattanooga and call it Simco/Longhorn. Billy Cook did not sell his name, he just couldn't keep it. When the Co went bankrupt everything went up with it, including the name, which had international recognition, Which is what made it valuable. He did keep building saddles at Billy Cook Harness until the I.R.S. shut him down for not paying his taxes, or not doing witholdings correctly for a number of years which amounted to a ton of money, which put him out of buisness in Greenville. Sulphur, O.K., had one of those grant type situations to get new buisnesses in their town and Billy got one. That is why he has his buisness there while still having his home in Greenville, Tx. No one who works at the Greenville plant is an original employee, but all the dies and patterns were done by Billy Cook. When those companies fuse like that they can buy literally truckloads, traincar loads of leather, synthetic fleece, glues, threads, etc. everything and distribute them to their various plants, also much cheaper than any small shop can do. This is one reason why a custom shop can't compete with a production shop, and shouldn't even try. The bottom line is Ron, if you have a Billy Cook saddle then it was made in Greenville, Tx. Billy Cook saddles have never been made in Mexico, or in Tn. Saddles labeled genuine Billy Cook saddles are made in Sulphur, O.K. where Billy wants it to be clear that that is where he is, the real Billy Cook. If you have a Greenville, Tx. Billy Cook saddle and you like it, just enjoy it. Troy West

I actually spent over an hour a month ago typing a response on this post, and when I clicked on preview post, it all disappeared. I never did it again. I would like to share a few thoughts on the subject. I've been building saddles for 31 yrs., my own trees for the past 9 yrs. The guys down here in Tx. who are the hardest on trees are calf ropers and trippers. I'd like to touch on a subject Jon mentioned earlier. Wilford Lewis, who passed away 1 1/2 to 2 yrs ago, was an excellent saddlemaker. He built saddles for many World Champions and celebrities as well. He had the same problems we all have getting his trees the way he wanted 'em and with good quality. He also had a lot of broken trees. He started building his own trees in the late seventies, early eighties. Jon Hillman, saddlemaker from Big Spring, Tx. told me he never saw prettier rawhide work on anybodies trees than Wilford Lewis.They were beautiful. Wilford Lewis told me he was getting 1 out 3 trees broken in the 80's. He was frustrated and decided to try covering one with fiberglass.He told me he couldn't remember if he used 1 or 2 layers of cloth but he thought it was 2, on his 1st one. About that time Phil Lyne called him and said he had broken 8 or 9 trees and needed something that would hold up. Wilford told him about the tree he had just built and Phil liked it and said build him a roughout. Wilford did and Phil went on to win the World title in tripping in '91 on this saddle. Wilford told me this story quite a few years ago. I never doubted it as he wasn't a windy or dishonest guy at all. In fact he seemed to be of excellent character but I just like to verify facts when I can, so after Wilford passed away I called Phil Lyne. He lives in Cotulla, Tx. and still ropes of course. I related to him the story Wilford had told me and asked if the facts were right. He said yes except for one thing. I said "what?" He said, "he had actually broken 14 trees." I said "over what time period?" He said "3 or 4 yrs." I said "what were you doing?' He said "tripping steers." He said "we were roping really big cattle back then. The steers weighed 800 lbs. They are roping lighter cattle now" I said " What kind of saddles were they?" He said " A lot of them were trophy saddles he'd won, but some were nice custom saddles he would of thought would hold up." I said " you still got Wilfords saddle?" He said " yea, It's in good shape" After that Wilford built everything on glass trees. Thats probably why his son Ray has a tree co. that builds fiberglass covered trees. In the last issue of Spin To Win magazine they asked Trevor Brazille what saddle he was riding. It was a Wilford Lewis. I also know Trevor recently had 2 saddles built by Jon Hillman. Jon uses nothing but glass trees of his own construction. I talk frequently with Howard Coucil. If you don't know him he usually has half the calf ropers at the NFR on his saddles. His saddles are rawhide covered, glass reinforced. He told me he has been using glass for 50 yrs. He believes it's a proven product. He has taken saddles apart and completely covered 'em with glass. The trees that had been breaking, when covered with rawhide, stopped breaking when covered with glass. Thats probably why glass trees are pretty well accepted down here. You can even take a broken rawhide tree, remove the rawhide, glass it back together and keep riding the same tree, and the leather goes back on perfectly. I've seen that done on a roper broken in the 70's and still being ridden today. Now let me say this. Just because a tree is covered with fiberglass does not mean its a good tree. There's a lot of crap out there. Conversely, just because a tree is covered with rawhide does not mean its a good tree either. There's a lot of crap out there. But we cant throw out the baby with the bath water. Good trees are built by craftsman who care about real quality, construction and fit. If you are having great success using nothing but rawhide trees, why would you want to change? I would say you wouldn't. It's change thats hard on us, the fear of the unknown, acceptability, etc. At the same time, I know of no better field test than a roper tripping steers. Driving trucks and trailors over trees is not real working conditions...for most of us, yet it seems to be a common test everywhere. Experimenting with fiberglass came about from a need to stop trees from breaking. It worked. If the bars had been made of different wood would they have held up better? Maybe. We dont have a lot of poplar in Tx. that I'm aware of. It is available and now we have the internet to help us find and learn things that just a few years ago were out of reach for most of us. There are many different ways to apply fiberglass, different weights of cloth,how many layers of cloth, etc. Many factors, getting proper resin to cloth ratios. Some of the trees I've seen had way too much resin . You cant look at a tree and tell how many layers of cloth are on it. I have to stop this post cause I'm tired of typing. Let me just say that any custom treemaker who does great woodwork and makes a hi quality tree and covers it with rawhide, they will have a great product. By the same token if he takes that same tree in the wood and paints it with resin and hand lays that cloth, it too will be an incredibly strong, waterproof, tree. I hope to share more thoughts later. Troy

Hello Robin, Welcome to the forum. Glad to have another tree-maker/saddlemaker. Troy West

Hey rdb, Glad you found success using this recipe. Didn't you find it cheap, efficient, and effective? The things I have dyed with this method look great, feel great, and have no negative smell at all. I actually have orders for some saddles I'll be coloring this way. There are many old saddles dyed this way with all types of hardware attached.Iron, bronze, silver, etc. and they haven't disentegrated. I am glad Chuck Burrows added his comments as he obviously has more experience with this method than I do. Thanks for posting your pictures and comments. It will be a few months before I have a saddle dyed this way, but I'll try to get a picture up. Troy West

I've been thinking of designing a new logo for some time. I would be interested. I would also like to see something you've already done. Troy West

Real nice work Andy. Hummingbirds about to feed on the flower is a nice touch. I like the hobble buckles too. I like the shape of them. I like your tree too. Is that a nightlatch on the offside? Tell 'em they won't get thrown outta that saddle! Nice job.

Thanks Bob, I really appreciate your comments, and you're right. I hope I never have to reline the skirts.

Keith, I meant to put that photo above in answer to your question. There is no separation either end. I started by making a template across the back of the cantle and cutting that line first. After I got it over the cantle I could shape it with my drawdown and then mark the spot for my horn. The hand hole is simply an oval hole. Hope that helps. Sorry the pictures in the wrong spot.

Bruce, It's a traditional wrap and a stirrup hobble, 2 separate pieces. I'm sure what you are considering is possible. It sounds like your making a stirrup wrap that doubles as a hobble strap. Ashley, Thanks for the compliment.The answer to your question is yes. On a regular seat rig you do add a liner under the seat just like you would a flat plate. You sew the bottom edge but the top tapers away under the seat jockey and is simply glued.

Bruce, I put a buckle on my stirrup hobbles and it's usually in the front. Don't know why I don't have it showing in this photo.

Hey, I appreciate you guys compliments very much.

Guys, I have slept since then. As you can see the date on the photo is 2002. I used my regular 13-15 oz. but picked it to the light end and I think it weighed maybe 32ish lbs. , but I really don't remember exactly.

The seat rig saddles I made in the past were much like the one you showed in the photo, just a traditional seat rig, however, I thought you guys might get a kick out of seeing a much more non-traditional saddle I made a few years ago. It's a Mother Hubbard seat rig, meaning, the swell , seat, rig, and housing are all one piece of leather. There's no lacing behind the cantle as it is all one piece of leather. The design was to be a simple lightweight saddle. I really build very traditional saddles but I did this for the challenge. Like I said, thought you guys might get a kick out of it.

Happy Birthday Jim. I enjoyed the singing B-day card Clay sent ya. Hope you have a great day.

Here's the pattern of the hardware. It looks like the same hardware in the photo you posted of the Oliver saddle.