TroyWest

Ashley, I've made several seat rig saddles. One for a cowboy on the Waggoner Ranch in Vernon, Tx. , another for a cowboy in Longview, Tx. with a large pre-con outfit. They both really seemed to love 'em. The first one I'd ever seen was in Bob Marrs shop in Amarillo many years ago. He built a lot of them. His opinion was pretty favorable . He told me the pull of the rigging went completely over the top of the seat. As you probably already know many of the trophy saddles at the ranch rodeos are custom made seat rigs. It's not a new concept as there are several very old seat rigged saddles in Don Kings museum. Upside: they're not that difficult to build. Fenders are much narrower than normal. One layer of leather less under your leg than a flat plate, one more than a skirt rig. Downside: You really have to get your patterns right, fenders are narrower than normal to go up in the slot , slot in seat has to be wide enough to allow forward movement of stirrup leathers, slot doesn't need to be too high or too low. Outside of those ranch rodeo circles a seat rigged saddle is looked at as a pretty odd duck . Just depends on where your market is. There was an old saddlemaker in Guthrie, Tx. named Tooter Cannon. He passed away some time back but he made mostly seat rigged saddles, if not exclusively. As a result, he designed a piece of hardware for the rig that was very flat and it was called a Tooter Cannon rigging. Glenn Pointer, a bit and spur maker made these. I can probably find the pattern for it in my files if you want to see what it loos like.

Jimsaddler, I always enjoy reading what you have to say. Troy West

Denise, the point you made on the string is an excellent point. Ryan, congratulations on your win at Kamloops. I know after listening to Chuck it'll just make you better. Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Great job Keith, really cool. Troy

Greg, One of the things I didn't say was stand the tree on a rock, but your depth measurement jig I've never heard of. Pretty clever.Thanks for sharing that. Troy

Greg and Denise, I think your reasoning here is very sound and logical, and frankly I like it, but it will only be as consistent as the treemaker makes it, but he should be very consistent. Greg After hanging your rig on the left side you still have to make sure your right side isn't further forward or back than the left. What is your point of reference? Denise, The nail in the cantle method. Set a yard stick on the back of the bars right behind the cantle. Take a small square and set it centered on the yardstick between the bars. If its 3" set it at 1 1/2" and draw a line straight up the back of the cantle. Turn the square around check it on the opposite side. It should be in the same spot. This should be a very accurate center point between the bars, Which is the goal, a center point between the bars. It should also be the center of the cantle. This also gives a very accurate reference point for lining up skirts when blocking in behind the cantle. Place a nail at the top of this line. I'm sure if I did this to one of your trees I could take a string and run it to the furthest point forward on the left bar, it would be identical on the right bar. I could run it to the front of the gullet on the left side, it would be identical on the right side, and if I hung a rig on the left side and then on the right, it would clearly tell me if I was off. If the nail isn't centered in the cantle, it's a waste of time. I don't see a way to do this after a saddle is built, too many variables with cheyenne rolls and seat jockeys. A rig 3/4" off would scream at you if this were accurately done. Your guy in the photo couldn't have done this accurately. Still, this is simply A method, not THE method.

One more thought on the exposed stitches on the back. I find I have to stick my awl thru the back hole first, without going completely thru. Then go thru the seat side and hit that back hole. You can find that back hole pretty easy and your awl will follow that premade guide hole right out the back and be accurate. Otherwise you might have a hard time hitting your stitch mark. When you don't, you can sure tell it, and so can everyone else. Do ya'll find it amazing? I'm in Tx., Keiths in Wy., Bruce in Ca., Greg and Andy in Can., Jon in Iowa, Bob in B.C., others in Oregon, New York, South America, Spain, and Australia and wherever and were all talkin' to each other like it was next door? Amazing.

My reference point is the same as Keiths, usually the back of the base of horn. I built my drawdown to be shaped like a horses back, so my tree fits on it at exactly the same angle as it would when sitting on a horse. This is crucial to getting your lines accurate when the saddle is on the horses back, in other words you don't want the bottom of your skirts running downhill when you saddle up. I see this a lot. It isn't nearly as crucial on round skirts as it is on saddles where the bottom edge of the skirt is flat. Back to the tree issue. The difficulty for all of us is there is no foundational reference point, meaning, If I use the lowest point of the bar, as a tree maker I can move that point further forward or back, and mess up your point of reference and most tree makers have no idea saddlemakers are using it anyway. I can also lean my front further forward or back, and mess up my own reference point. I can also set my front further back on my bars and change everything, but we all have to use something! So I use the reference point I mentioned, preferring to have a rig a little too far back than too far forward, if anything. I know fronts can be off, seen a lot of horns off center, and cantles can be further forward on one side or the other. Using a good craftsman for your trees will eliminate a lot of these problems. Another thing I do is put a small nail in the center of the top of the cantle. I keep a string hanging on the wall with a loop in it. After hanging my rigs temporarily with nails I hook the loop over the nail in the center of the cantle and measure to see if the rigs are the same distance from the nail. It's simple quick and easy. I consider it important to hang my rigs the same distance from the bottom of the bars, easily checked with a ruler, but even more important to have them the same front to back.

I agree that rawhide wears out faster on binders and I just tell 'em I don't do that anymore. I do a lot of straight binders and I like to do a hidden stitch. It's clean, it looks good, and you can actually sew faster because you don't have to have those back stitches perfectly placed because they are hidden. The saddle I'm building right now has a hidden stitch. I take my binder down on my bandknife to about a 10oz., fit it on my tree, take it off and flatten it on my bench with my glass slicker. I've tried this several ways but I like best to use my round knife. Lay the binder on the edge of the bench and run my knife lightly down the middle of the back edge of the binder. Then I do it again going a little deeper each time til I have it the depth I want it. I like it to be 1/4" to 3/8" or so. I prefer to be in the middle of the leather. If your closer to the bottom side it makes it harder to flip the top up for sewing. If you're too close to the top edge it'll flip up easy but when glued down it can show bumps where each stitch was made. Glue your binder on your saddle. I use my creaser to open that cut up. Keep the back of that binder moist so the leather will flip up to get your needles and awls past it and sew. I actually like to start in the middle and go one way, then come back and go the other way. Keeps me from having to have so much thread at a time and it seems to keep it a little cleaner. I glue it shut with rubber cement. Rub it smooth with my rubbing stick, and then edge it with a small edger. A smooth job back there makes a saddle look really nice, and a bad job looks so bad. A big deal to me is keeping those borders accurate with your tooling.

Hello Ian, Welcome to the forum. I've really enjoyed this site myself. Thank you for the kind compliment. You seem to have come a long way from being a harness maker. Really cool stuff. Look forward to seeing more of it. Troy

Ryan, I took some photos today but all I had was a 35mm and didn't get them developed. I did find a photo taken a couple of years ago. My shop is to the left with the row of windows. The pipe and linoleum to the right obviously. I now have a deck the full length of the house that is 16' deep so everything is under roof but I still take pictures in the same place. I'll try to post a picture with this exact set-up to show how it looks with natural lighting. Troy

The screws you want are available in stainless. I use 'em and I like them also. The place to get them is in Lynchburg, Va. McFeely's Square Drive Screws 1 800 443-7937 Call 'em and ask for a catalog, and welcome to the forum. Troy West

Thank you Ben, I really appreciate it, and I really enjoy reading this forum so, glad to be here.

Thanks for the compliment Ryan. I've been out of town a few days and just saw your post. I'll try to get some photos tomorrow. Troy

Ryan, I know you asked this question over a month ago but I just read it. I noticed no one answered your question on saddle photos so I thought I'd share with you at least a possible option and it is the method I use. Several years ago Texas Monthly sent a professional photographer to my shop to take some photos so I used the opportunity to drill him with questions. He also taught photography at a college so he was used to a lot of questions. I asked him what would be the best way to photograph saddles. He recommended going to a flooring store and buy a cheap piece of linoleum about 15' long. He said to use the backside for the background. He recommended painting it white but I was able to find a piece a little off white on the back already. If you tell them what you're doing they will often have pieces left on an odd roll that is maybe a lousy pattern on the other side so they sell it pretty cheap. I paid $15 for mine. It's abot 6' wide. I bought a piece of pipe about 8' long, threads on both ends, put a cap on one end and an elbow on the other with a short piece of pipe screwed into that to simply create an L. Built a simple frame out of 2x4's so it would hang on an outside wall. I may need to take a picture of mine if that would help. I know a picture's worth a thousand words. At any rate, I used duct tape to tape one end to the pipe. Then you can simply roll it up on the pipe to get it out of the way. When you need to take a photo, pull the roll down and your flooring unrolls. Pull it far enough down so it serves as background and floor underneath the saddle.I also folded the outer end of mine and sewed a seam so the outer end would be a little easier to manage. Set you're stand on the flooring. Throw a sheet over your stand and you have a great outdoor studio to take saddle or chap photos. Originally mine was under the eaves of my shop, which gave some protection from the weather. Now I built a porch on my shop so its under the porch ready to use anytime. I also recommend putting it where its not in direct sunlight, or waiting until the time of day when the sun doesn't create shadows on your subject. If I need to take a photo of mine, let me know. I've had good luck with this set up and it's pretty inexpensive to build. Hope that helps. Troy West

Thanks for the reply Jim. Troy

jimsaddler, I've made my sewing awls for years, but never thought of that. Will any bicycle spoke work?

Randy, my metal was already rusty, I never made it without it. Have you ever laid a nail on a piece of wet leather and then the leather turned black where the nail was? I'm sure the ferrous oxide in the metal leaches onto the leather and this process is simply a controlled method of that. My guess is that the nails or metal probably would not have to be. You could sure try it. The oil I use is pure neatsfoot oil, but I experimented using my wifes vegetable oil and the effect was the same.

After reading about some problems some folks were having dyeing leather black I thought I would share an effective method that you can make yourself and after dyeing it will not come out when wet . I have always hated dyeing anything black because it was so messy and this is simple and easy and I don't even mind occasionally dying a belt black for a friend anymore. This was told to me by an old saddlemaker who said many of the old black parade saddles were dyed in this manner. After trying it, I can believe it. Ingredients: vinegar, rusty metal....really...read on I went to Walmart and bought a half gallon of white vineger, about a buck and a half. Went home, took the cap off and I had a bag full of rusty #3 nails and put rusty nails in that half gallon jug til the liquid came to the top. Then just put the cap back on. I tried it after about 3 days but it wasn't quite ready.After a week it was pretty good and after that it just gets stronger. Just as a side note, anything rusty will work, my brother put an old chain saw blade in his. It kinda takes on the appearance of a nasty tea. What I have done is just take a large kitchen bowl, put it in the sink, and pour in the solution. Then just take the belt and stick in one end and run it through, usually a couple of times, sometimes three. You might think, oh man, this is ugly...ugly as a yellow yard dog...Actually I had a yellow yard dog that was quite handsome. Let's go with...ugly, ugly as an empty glass of buttermilk... cause it won't be purdy. It will be kind of dark greyish brownish...Let it dry.. Then apply oil...It will turn the prettiest shade of black...black as the ace of spades and you can't rub the black out on your fingers. You'll really think that was way too easy! I eventually took the nails out of my mix 'cause it kind of keeps digesting the nails, but I've had this mixed up for at least 9 months and it still seems as effective as ever. This is for veg. tan leather, like skirting so a holster maker could completely make a holster, then dip it in this solution with no problem. The vinegar smell doesn't stay in the leather after a few days and I have had no problems applying a finish. I usually use Tan-Kote, but have applied Neat-Lac also, no problem. Another thing I found was the leather dyed black all the way through and it did not affect the color of my thread at all, I use poly thread. I'm sure it would not affect nylon, I don't know about linen. I recommend you mix up a batch, try it on some scrap first before a finished item. I really have had excellent success with this method. The items I have dyed black turned out really beautiful, and I don't mind dyeing anything black anymore. Happy dyeing...not dieing..dyeing

I'm glad your having success Bruce. I've considered using a screwdriver myself but never have. It's a good thought.

Waddy asked me some questions that I thought would be helpful to the whole forum. One of the things he said was occasionally he puts on Blevins backwards. Haven't we all??? More than once?? And immediately needed to remove a brand new rivet.You dont really need to hit it so hard But the goal is simply to destroy the washer without destroying the leather. I said hit it to the left then to the right then the top then the bottom if you have to. That little copper washer can't take it. You might ding the leather under it but it will be covered up with the new rivet. Everyone will just have to figure out how much it takes but its still much faster than the other way.

Really nice clean work Jon, and I like the lines also. Troy

Waddy, I just noticed you are a saddlemaker. You probably already have some saddlers spikes.

I'm sorry Waddy. All saddlemakers use saddlers spikes but I guess not everyone reading this is a saddlemaker. These are available everywhere, i.e. Weaver, Tandy, Hidecrafters, various lengths from about 4 1/2" to 8" or so. prices around 5 to 8 bucks. I use the larger sizes on #9 copper rivets. I used to use the drill method but after doing it this way I haven"t used a drill in years. This is just so fast and simple. Troy

The simplest way to remove a copper rivet. Take a spike , put it just to the left side of the rivet on the copper washer and strike it, then do it on the right side. This will cause the washer to fold right up, sometimes it will come right off then, if not you can now easily grab it with nippers and pull it off. If the rivet has been peened pretty big, you can nip it off before pushing it thru the hole, causing less damage.This is much faster than trying to drill them out, causes no heat damage, and does not damage the item. You're welcome.