mworthan

Andy, Thanks for the reply. By local building supply, i am asuming that the brand is probably something along the line of Weldwood? I am always a little suspect of the "true"differences in glues as i was about epoxies until I learned that most of them are derivitives of the same Shell product. With that being said, have you seen much difference in performance compared to traditional shoe type glues? I imagine not or you wouldn't use it. Also, any performance differences in water based vs. solvent based? I'm always interested in saving what few brain cells I have left. Switched over to water bourne wood finishes years ago building casework. Can you reveal your brand? Thanks, Mike in Rome

Thanks. I'll try to find a supplier local and give it a try.

Bruce, What is the name of the glue that you are using from Renia? Is it the Master Maxbond or the Master Multi-purpose? thanks, Mike

I used Barge to start with. Aaron from Panhandle asked me to try Masters and I can say with 100% conviction it is, hands down, the best I've used so far. Thinner, faster, stronger period... Call Panhandle and ask for Aaron. He'll take care of you. BTW, I used Titebond II dark glue for the hornwraps and swell covers, everything else gets the Masters. I like the dark glue because any tell-tell glue line looks like antiqueing and doesn't resist staining like a lot of the common yellow or white glues. I guess if I was doing a real "bleached" show saddle I wouldn't use the walnut glue. Thanks, Mike from Rome, GA

They have my vote! Nice, consistant, well made trees. I use the DuraK coated TM Team Roper trees with glassed in strainers and my customers (as well as myself) love it. Thom is a great guy to work with as well as Armando. The Competition bars fit these big, meaty horses around here better than just about any tree I have used. I've taken the same saddle and thrown it on what looks to be a much slighter built horse, lighter in the shoulder, with identical results. The bars are a little shorter which also works better for these shorter backed horses that seem to be the "norm" (here at least). The seat is the best glassed in strainer I've sat in, period. Never had one come in twisted, unsymmetrical or with signs of poor craftsmanship. I am on my 7th tree and you could swap any piece of leather on one tree of identical specs and they would fit the other exactly... real handy if you build a lot of the same thing for a group of ropers or such when it comes to patterns and layout. No paid endorsement here... just a customer. - Mike from Rome, GA

Thought I would put Keith's instructions in a pdf doc like some of the previous instructions that he and others have provided before. Makes a nice "step by step" to print out, hole punch and stck in a reference binder. thanks, Mikeseidel inlayed seat.pdf

Thanks to both of you. What a great resource! Mike

In particular how the billets are laced so that the lace wraps around the outside edges of the billet? How do you start it? May not be able to be described... Thanks, Mike

I've noticed several saddles here that lace the back billets on with a latigo lace as seen here on one of Mr. Wright's saddles... Can this process be described or do I have to see it done? - Mike

FYI... Many thanks to all who contributed. Seems that this little post has made a huge difference in the way my cantle binding went on this go around and I want to thank those guys who suggested that I cut a straight or slightly arced binding. I used Bruce's concept of an arced binding and it almost folded itself around the cantle back, very little shaping to work out the wrinkles. On odd thing you do have to fight is the binding wanting to go straight between the temporary nails along the stitch groove. This wasn't much of a problem when I was ready for glue up as I just soaked it good after the glue dried and followed the line in a smooth arc with a wet binding. Another thanks to Aaron at Panhandle Leather who recommended Masters Glue over the Barge I have been using. Aaron seems like a super nice guy and I have started ordering my HO from them. been getting good stuff. Good lord that was some nice glue to use and goes on like a dream without having to push it around like crazy and wait forever for it to dry. About the consistancy of evaporated milk. Anyway, thanks everybody. This is a great resource for getting things done quicker (and better) when your stuck out here like I am. - Mike

Just saw this pop back up with a question and it reminded me that Troy West had sent some additional info so I want to post it here. these are excerpts from the emails sent... "You do stitch the outer edge of the skirts of course which locks top and bottom together and holds the woolskins on. You do not stitch around the bar in front. You do block in the skirts around the bars in front and rear, but not in the stirrup leather area. Do this before glueing on the top rigging. Your sketch of the plugs coming up and ending just under the rigging is correct as well but most guys do not skive the rigging on top much at all, just enough to where your machine can sew neatly over the transition." Me asking... "Troy, Thanks for the reply. More help than I could ask for. Does it look like I am handling the rear dee properly by keeping it part of the rigging?" "Mike, The answer is yes. Keeping the rear dee part of the rigging is the best way to do it. What you have drawn is very good." So there is a few more tidbits added to the topic. I am actually getting ready to start those saddles the end of the week on a pair of wood post Will James from Thom Stevenson at Precision. I'll post how it goes. Thanks, Mike

The straight or slightly arched is going to be how I handle the next one. It seems to mess up a lot of leather to do a "C" shaped binding piece and I think that shaping the straight(ish) binding would naturally make it easier to compress underneath the roll. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate all of your input. I mean it. - Mike

Thanks Guys. There is one thing that Bruce said that has me wondering if I am starting this thing all wrong. Seems from what Bruce says that most of these bindings are cut straight and what Bruce likes to do is cut a slight arch with the longest edge being along the stitch groove side and thus forcing the shorter side of the arch to stretch (making it tighter as it is tacked in place) underneath the roll. Here is where I may be causing myself a lot of problems... I have been using a pattern that is in the shape of the cantle, just like Watt does. Basically a large letter "C". That puts a lot of leather out there to be compressed under the roll once I think about it. Am I understanding this correctly? Are most of you cutting a straight piece (or in Bruce's case sligthly arched) then tacking and bending it along the cantle? If you are I am definately on the wrong (or just more difficult) track by creating a basic fan shape with the biggest part needing to be compressed (maybe excessively) to get it smoothed out under the roll.

Hello, I hope that some of you folks can help me out to maybe find a hole or two in my process where I am not doing enough to prepare my binding for shaping because I am having a heck of a time (sometimes easier and sometimes harder) to get all my wrinkles out from underneath the Cheyenne roll. I am using about a 9 oz piece of skirting for starters, skiving the leather down about halfway out and around the edges (maybe not enough), glue down the top, roll it around the back and then start from the ear and work my way across. Seems like I get to one area at times and there is no way I am going to get all of that wrinkle smoothed out. other times it happens without too much fuss. I just walked back in from the shop and I've got one of those bad ones going on. How to you guys do it? What is your process and what is some of the big gotcha's that if you don't pay close attention, it just ain't gonna happen? Thanks for any help you can give, I'm hung out here in Rome, GA with no local saddlemakers I know of to talk to and watch. - Mike

Was watching a "How things are made " program the other night and they were at a saddle factory (semi-custom it seemed) and the guy doing the horn and cantle binding stitch was sitting in the saddle when he did both. I think he was buckstitching the cantle binding using artificial sinew. Had a huge awl and was moving really quick. Anyway, I have a Carl Ammerman calf roper done that way and has held up so maybe not a bad way to cut some time off, if that is what the customer wants (or doesn't know the difference or even care). BTW, how many customers have you had in the shop looking at one of your own and you are pointing out all of the extras that take time (saddle stitched cantle bindings for example or domed rivets) and realize that to the average buyer, they could care less? Guess it depends on your clientel. Mine is pretty " no frills". None of them (the men) want anything floral tooled (that's for girls I guess) and mostly rough or smooth out only. I just went through that a couple of days ago and it has me wondering about what we do to impress the average buyer vs. each other (in the trade). Just thinking.... Mike

Gotcha, If it gets cut or breaks, will it unravel? or... is it just as good as a lockstitch where you cross needles / threads. The benefit is that it is faster? Thanks, Mike

Can you explain the process if you have time? I've seen a buckstitch done with rawhide lace. Is it similar?

How do you stitch using wire bristles? I just always used an awl, egg eye needles and linen thread. Just curious....

I'll hunt one down. I appreciate all of your input. - Mike

Thanks, Have a Happy New Year.

It does help. I think I'll give the one piece welts a try. I have noticed it being a little tougher to keep the folded welt seam from "waving off" one way or another when unfolding, plus I like the fact that you trim it off where it needs to be when finished instead of being precise in lining up the folded welt and making sure there is enough hanging out the seam to mash down (and they don't mash down all that easy) and cover the stitches so they don't show. What do you use to trim it off on the outside?

Thanks for the response. I went to your website and took a look at what you are doing. Very nice, very clean work. I like the laced fork seams as well. A few questions if that's okay... 1. On the one piece welt, what weight leather do you use? 2. You trim out 1/4" beyond the pinched line. Do you then hammer flat to fill in the thread showing? 3. On the laced seams I see things going like this... A. Trim to the pinched line. B. Whip stitch the two lines together. C. Punch and lace the two pieces starting from the top of the cover. D. Install the cover final. Am I close? 4. Why do you prefer one piece vs. folded welts? I know the folded welts aren't easy to get flat (at least not for me). Thanks, Mike

Merry Christmas all... Generally speaking, how many of you hand stitch vs machine stitch your welts on the fork cover? and... How much folded welt do you leave, on average, beyond the pinched line that you stitch to along the seam (1/8"... 3/16???). Thanks, Mike

Gentlemen, Thanks so much for all of your input and instruction. I have created pdf's of all of your instructions (with some editing using an outline style - not content) and hopefully I captured this in a format that you all are okay with. I wanted to contribute in some way to help further the learning process for others and capture the spirit of all of your willing attitudes toward helping folks like me. I personally like to use this kind of process to create material I can reference later for my own personal use. Hopefully these load up okay. I hope that I can ask again for your help and expertise. If any of you have a problem or suggest a correction I would be happy to make that revision and re-post. Also if any of you want me to remove the instructions for what ever reason, I will do so as well. Thanks Again, Mike Worthan Rome, GA Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Bruce Johnson.pdf Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Troy West.pdf Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Keith Seidel.pdf

Fantastic Troy! Can't tell you how much I appreciate both your and Bruce's help. You seem to have a great sense of humor (the details got progressively "better"). Seems like you are having fun. I don't see how, but I hope I can repay the favor sometime. I do a lot of design, CAD and casework. PM or email me if I can help ya'll with some sort of special need you may have. Thanks Again, Mike