Newfman

Thanks for taking the time Tosch, Now I just have to decide if that is a good thing...or a bad. I am pretty sure all my questions have been answered, but trying to figure out how to get productive results out of this search engine here is maddening. I did have concerns about the beeswax content of it though. I was wondering if this would affect my ability to re-oil the saddle next time. Or would its affects be lost by the time a saddle is ready for another oiling? Any thoughts? Dennis

Quick question, I have removed all the conchos, stirrup leathers, latigos cinches, etc., and have inspected everything. Now I am about to give the saddle a good scrubbing and oiling. I was wondering about the shearling. What is recommended for cleaning this? I have a few days of sunshine so, I will be able to get at it all with a hose. the wife is out of town so I can clean all the various straps in the kitchen sink. What do you think about horse shampoo for cleaning it? Are there going to be issues with hosing this saddle down? I wouldn't even think about doing this with my draft horses' production saddle! It has all it can do to just stay in one peice while on the stand. My plan is a little murphys oil soap, a bucket of water, a toothbrush (an old one, not my present one) and a surgical scrub brush (soft, but short bristles). I will let the saddle dry for a day or so in the mud room and then wipe it down with a light coat of olive oil, on the tooled as well as the rough-out leather. Sound like a good plan? Ah yes, my Wife uses a product called 'effax Lederbalsam' on her english saddle. It contains lanolin, avocado oil, and beeswax. Is there a reason i should or should not use this instead. I can also get something at the feed store if that would be better.

Yup, I was just curious about the wrap. I have seen it on a few saddles throughout the forum and liked the look. I wasn't sure how you finished the ends, but I think i have an idea now. I used to shoot tournament archery, and made my own bow strings. It sounds like you finised the inds of the wrap, similar to how you finish the serving line on a bow string. Something to experiment with I guess. Thanks for the info. Dennis

Really nice. I have always liked the balance of tooled and rough-out. I see on your stirrup leathers, you sort of 'cuff' the leather just below the buckle and wrap them. Is that latigo leather that you wrap them with? And how do you finish the wrap? I like it. Dennis

So, when do I start? Ah, I must have overlooked the experienced part. I know when i was building a small traditional timberframe barn for my horses, my neighbor who is a commercial builder, scoffed at the amount of work. He said he could stick build it faster and for less money. Granted, he can rough measure and nail gun a big shed together in no time, but that is all that it is. His would last for 20 years on the long estimate, mine is hand made, with traditional joinery, pinned together with oak pegs. If a good roof is kept on it, it will last for a couple hundred. yeah, I was feeling a bit insulted. There is a lot of pride in craftsmanship. Can't see selling it short.

Got it, thanks Andy

I just called my little hardware store in town (population 1500) and they have #9 solid Copper rivets in a variety of lengths. Whoda'thunk?! I would have never looked there. So, that brings up a new question. What is the rule of thumb for rivet shank excess, beyond the thickness of the leather? Do you just get the 1" and trim them down with dikes or something to a certain length before setting them? What is the optimal length beyond the leather for a good set, I think is a better way of asking?

So, being that I would only be shortening it about an inch to get that strap down to 11" (including the buckle) is it worth it or necessary to do this, as opposed to just adding holes or shortening it by removal of the rivets at the top of the fender and cutting the strap there? I would prefer that the buckle end be riveted and sewn, and I am willing to do that should you deem it necessary to work that end. Just making sure that it is, before I order an awl, needles, overstitch wheel, and . . . talent.

Andy You forgot. . . "...and here's your sign." I new that, but when I had everything taken apart and was trying to figure out how I was going to 'fix' this, I somehow forgot how I adjust my stirrups. That's the nice thing about the internet. You get to be stupid in perpetuity!

Oh, one more thing. The leather on each side of the buckle is bound with about 3" of stitching as well as having the 3 rivets. So, I need to learn how to do that real quick as well. It was bound to happen someday. Feel free to clarify things if it sounds like I have things confused. The new length from the bottom of the curve of the stirrup leather (where the actual stirrup seats) to the base of the buckle (the end of the leather where the buckle protrudes) is 11" without any modification. So, I should take that apart and shorten it some more, right?

I assume that is to keep the buckle from getting to high on the horse? Otherwise one might just add a few holes and shorten the tail. I have soaked one side and put the twist in it and got the hobble back on while it is drying. It looks like I bought a couple inches. This sure looks like it is a pain in the butt to adjust stirrup lenghts. I know when I am on a rather round horse I need to shorten my stirrups and on a thinner horse I lengthen them. I just don't recall having this much trouble. I will have to go back to my friends place and look at their saddles again. Here are the last two photos this camera will ever take. I guess it is graveyard time for the Ol' Cannon CyberShot. Unfortunately, the newly twisted leather won't get photographed. Time to go to Best Buy. Wife is not happy about the death of her camera. Just when she was about to go to the CanAM Sled Dog race. "What? Your Camera quit working?!?!?"

I am 5'8 and 1/2" (gotta add the half) with a 30" inseam. the saddle is a 15 1/2" seat. The full length of the fenders are 20". Add 6.5 inches from the top of the fender (base of the bar) to the mid-line of the seat and that leaves only 3.5 inches for the stirrup leather at the base of the fender to turn and the depth of the stirrup itself. Coming up a little short. I'm developing stirrup envy.

Thanks, i will have to order those. Being in Maine, not a lot of saddle or leather shops around. Well, other than english tack supplies. I just tried to shoot some close-ups of the stirrup leather with and without the hobble, and the camera just died. Like dead dead, not battery dead. CRAP! I will work on the Stirrup end first and see how that goes, if it works out, I will order the rivets etc. Thanks for the info. Dennis

The picture is certainly worth a thousand words. How long would you soak it for, and I assume that it won't stain it. (?) So, just soak the ends i am working or is it better to remove and do the whole thing? Sounds like a stupid question, but I don't want to have a little color shift where the dry-v-soaked sections are. I need to investigate proper rivets, tool and removal of old and reinstallation of new rivets. Hmmm, grind them with a dremel, or drill them? I have a feeling my wife will be just shy of being able to use this saddle. She will likely be where I am now. We'll see. Out of curiosity, just how long are "standard" fenders, generally speaking. As in, for people that aren't requesting extra long. Or is every fender made per saddle per person and nobody uses a pattern for them?

Sorry, that picture is a little misleading. There is a strap that goes around the stirrup leather and I have that removed. the leather makes a turn after it goes through the stirrup, and that turns the stirrup out. If I raise the stirrup any higher by adding holes for the buckle, I would not be able to twist the leather and certainly would not be able to put the strap back on. I will try to get a photo tomorrow. To tired now from work. The other issue is the fender is pretty much right up to the bars, so, there is no room on that end either.

Hey folks, Tried to 'search' for some answers and found everything except the things i was searching for. Haven't found the secret for the search tool on this site. Anyway, I finally found a hand made Wade saddle that I like and that appears to fit my horse, (so far). This saddle was made by Bob Beecher of Outwest Saddlery in Pagose Springs. It is a custom built, oil finished saddle built in 2004 and delivered in 2005. It has found its way to me and I really like everything about it except: 1) I have to figure out how to give it a good clean up, and 2) The woman that it was built for evidently had some serious legs! Whoda' thunk. Yup, I can put my feet flat in the stirrup sort of, but cannot put any weight down while seated. The leathers can't be shortened anymore by anymeans, because the fenders are too long. I talked to Bob on the phone and he will make a new set of fenders and leathers, and rough-out will be the most economical at this time. I can make a tooled set as my first "real" project, once I get to the point that I am ready to start working leather. The color difference is going to be night and day. I understand that I can put the leathers and fenders out in the sun to darken them some. Do you oil them first, or does it matter? Any other reccomendations for getting a better match? Does leather reach a point that it is basically done darkening so that the newer leather may catch up? I am attaching photos. I would like to freshen up the seat a little and remove some stains, but, it is a working saddle and I think it has character. It needs a definite clean-up. Some of the tooling is caked with dirt. My plan is to scrub it with Murphys oil soap and some light brushes. I can do it in the basement, as it is winter here. Do you need to rinse it with a hose? Just a clean damp sponge and fresh water? or what? Being winter in Maine, the whole hose thing isn't really practical. My plan was to use olive oil on it for the finish, is that ok? What about the roughout seat? Does it get the same treatment? Should I wait until the saddle is completely dry? I'm wondering if we may someday get a sticky thread on saddle leather care, cleaning, rejeuvinating for both tooled and rough out leather. I know these things have been answered, but when I search things like 'cleaning leather' I get links to "nice clean lines on that saddle Bob!" And a hundred variations. I have tried a variety of search specs. So, sorry for having to bug you on this. I plan to hold on to the original leathers in case I sell the saddle someday, I will be able to make it all original. thanks for the help.

That's too bad. He looks like he has some good bone and nice broad chest. Most of them around here have had all the good stuff bred out. Little pony feet and fine bones, ugh, what a mess. But Duke, man what a nice butt! I don't blame you, I wouldn't let him go either. Looks as kind and big hearted as can be as well. Oops, I'm hijacking the thread. Sorry folks. Carry on.

I think the people at Yugo Motors were all good car builders. They just used the cheapest components they could find. Toyota makes a nice little entry level car, but did not use the cheapest components. Even Mercedes makes an entry level car, but uses high end components. All the people that weld, screw, bolt, clip, stick, glue, snap and all the other trades that go into assembling a car, pretty much have their craft down. The biggest difference was the quality of the parts. Yugo was really cheap, and you would have a hard time finding one, even in a museum. The others, well, are still on the road. Granted, some of the people here are making Ferraris and Bugattis. Those would be the top quality parts, top quality design and assembly, and extrordinary tooling. They have Bugatti customers as well. For a "working" saddle, I just don't see how Saddle Makers like Keith Seidel, Kent Frecker, and a slew of other fine saddle makers could build a saddle on a $90 tree, with fine imported hardware and leather from China, and have it live a long hard life at the hands of a working cowboy and not just fall apart. Skill alone just isn't going to do it. I haven't built a saddle, but i can recognize quality, and getting better at it every day. Norm Abrams and Tom Silva could build a pretty house out of crap materials. One might look at it and say, "Wow, what a beautiful house!" and I bet Tom and Norm would just turn and walk away muttering. . ."It's Crap." So, in a way, you get what you pay for. If you are ignorant enough to buy a $950 brand new "Hand Made" saddle and the builder sells you on all of the advantages of a ralide tree, well, 'caveat emptor'. If you buy a hand made saddle for $2500 and you were told that it was all top quality materials but found out later that it had a ralide tree in it....I can think of ways I would prefer to deal with that. The price does not make, the saddle. The components + Skill + knowledge + reputation= a saddle of high value. There are saddles available everywhere in the spectrum of quality and value. Pick your poison.

I want the horse.

These are very informative posts indeed. I just finished reading an article, "INSIGHTS FROM 7 TOP SADDLE FITTERS" in the March 2010 edition of DRESSAGE TODAY. No, I'm not a cross dresser !! It is my other halfs magazine as she is an Easterner. First and foremost, it was incredibly uninformative. There was a lot of patting one's self on the back. What little I did eke out was that the "High End' saddle makers lean a bit toward "Micro Fitting". That being said, there was some indication that adjustable tree saddles are possibly going to be a strengthening trend, as the idea of a single saddle, fitting a particular horse through a longer range of development garners popularity. I also feel that, both in reading and from spending time around 'Eastern' barns, that, saddles are as much a fashion statement and status symbol as anything else. Often times the name is what matters most. The article also tended to be more about the saddle fitting the rider, so that the rider can be in a better place for the horse and very little was mentioned about the actual fitting process in regards to the horse. I was surprised, but should not have been. The "close contact" of the English style saddle and the much smaller contact area, due to the smaller tree may lend itself better to "micro fitting" but, one must consider if the horse is in a higher end of competition, or, more in the entry level. The amount of physical change that one may see in a Dutch Warmblood is incredible when you compare his conformation from the time that he is first started under saddle (usually around 3 to 4 years of age) to the time that he is performing at Prix St. Georges, FEI, Grand Prix, etc. which is in the 9 to 12 year old range (generally speaking). The "finished" horses are pretty much at their full development, and the money involved with this 'class' of horse tends to run in the millions. So, an $8,000 dollar custom saddle along with being able to say you flew your saddle maker in from Germany to fit it, is just a drop in the bucket. The unfortunate part is, this kind of thing is almost flaunted, and the many thousands of wannabes lap up this goosh of excessiveness, as they read articles about it in magazines or hear their "hero's" talk about it in interviews. There is a constant scramble for the latest and greatest, and it often times has nothing to do with the horse. When you see a horse short striding and blocked, you may think it has a poor fitting saddle, (though I look at the feet first), but the rider will be quick to correct you, as it is a brand new $4,500 Jaguar! The store rep. fit it personally! What the store rep. may have fit, was a saddle the size of the dollar signs in your eyes, and the fact that you couldn't stop talking about how your instructor rides a Jaguar saddle. I know a woman that would buy a custom micro-fit saddle for every horse she has and at every stage of it's life if she realized it was possible. Yet, I don't even recall ever having seen her ride any of them. I think that many of you have hit the nail on the head. Custom fitting has become "over done" not "over rated". While some saddle makers may try to out 'fit' other saddle makers, it is ridiculous to try to "micro-fit" something as dynamic as a horse. I think the article in WESTERN HORSEMAN was an eye opener. I think it was very responsible reporting, as it reaches the general western riding public, and it comes from those highly sought after names. I think it falls directly in line with what many of you say here. If you are a working cowboy, you just don't have the budget for a saddle for every horse and a 28' straight truck to transport them all around for you. You also tend to ride "typee" horses, for lack of a better word. If you are a hobby- horse collector and like a variety of breeds, you are looking at having a variety of saddles. If you are a show horseman, you probably have your work/training saddle or 2 and a "Star Saddle" for your "Star Horse". I think it is great that the weekend warrior, is trying so hard to do what is "right" or good for their horse. Ignorant or not, it is at least about the horse. So, while some makers or production companies may choose to take advantage of it and ride the gravy train while it is still on the tracks, I take solace in the fact that I have been afforded the opportunity to inquire and get opinions from such an eclectic group of knowledgeable people here on leatherworker.net. Now...how cool is that!?!?!

I can just see Ol' Rooster, sittin in that saddle. Man i miss him. Really nice job.

No offense intended Jeremy, and welcome to the forum. I was just looking for an unbiased opinion, and wondered how a new hand made saddle could sell for $1500 when the cost of materials seems to run almost that much. Since i am still in the early stages of learning saddle making, I question just about everything, much to the other members chagrin. I have looked on eBay, and have actually found good saddles, and no doubt, there is a lot of questionable ones as well. I wasn't comparing your saddle to anything, just asking about them specifically. Regards, Dennis

Oh, I think I got it. I just looked at my heading rope. Looks like they stopped the rope (with tape or tie) unstranded it, likely taping the ends of the strands as well to keep them from unraveling. Then it looks like they ran the three strands parallel to each other and tied an overhand. They then let the strands run wild and made somewhat of a tassle with them, but you could melt them as well. Is there some kind of wax or parrafin I could then melt on to the knot for longevity? The one that is on there is completely coated, but again, I don't know if that was done before or after, and with what. Anyhow I think I got it now. I can see how that would be a smaller knot. Looks like I need to get a rope. I guess if i got a 60' rope i can make it a 58' and nobody would notice, right? Thanks Bruce.

So, do you mean to strand them out and then do just a basic overhand for each strand (3 or 4 strand) individually? Or was there a different knot if doing it that way. Sorry, i think I am missing it.

I appreciate your input, but, while I am familiar with the head gear, the shortness of the noseband, puts the leather straps that hold the nose band (the cheek pieces of the headstall) in the corner of his eyes. I really would like to install a little longer nose band. He is very soft, and regardless of the "how too' of a side pull, I am not one for pulling on my horses. I will be using light pull and release, the same as I do with the rope halter. He is a 4 year old RPSI Oldenburg Thoroughbred and that may account for the unusual fit. He will be going to a traditional Vaquero style Hackamore soon. This is more for the benefit of the nice old guy that sent us the gear, then anything else. He won't be seeing a bit for a couple years.