Newfman

funny, last summer i put on my old Luchesse boots and found the same thing. My feet had gotten wider and they were too tight. I used a spray can of boot stretch, and put two pairs of socks on. Stuffed my feet in the boots and walked around the house until they dried. This did two things, 1) stretched my boots until they were slightly less than comfortable. Which sucked because i paid over 300 for them. 2) Tortured me enough to realize you can't get 10 lbs of B.S. in a 5 lb bag. So, i will just buy boots that fit. For the price, they should be really comfy. I hope your experience is better, but, sometimes, you just gotta' suck it up and get boots that fit.

Hey folks, Have a question. We were given a Schutz Bros. Hackamore and it has required a little modification. Turns out, the previous owner had no luck getting it to fit his horse(s). At this point, all I need to do is replace the nose band. The noseband is rope, but is heavily waxed (or whatever that process is) like a lariat, ranch rope of calf rope. Can anyone tell me how I can replace the (too short) nose band? I think the rope is 7/16ths. I have an old calf rope that I thought about cutting and tying in but it is only 3/8ths diameter, not good. Am I going to need to buy a new larger diameter lariat and cut a piece off, or is there a method of using a length of rope and treating it? If I have to do that, how do you reccomend getting the knots tight? It looks like it was tied on with a basic overhand knot and the ends were melted to prevent fraying. So, that means it was Nylon or Poly I would guess, leaning more towards nylon. I don't know if it was 'waxed' afterward though, or pre-waxed. Anyone make these things that can lend a suggestion. We are looking into a new hand braided Bosal and horse hair Mecate as well, so, it isn't the end of the world. It was given to us by a very nice older gent that my Wife really likes and she thought it would make him very happy to see it being used. Even though it has a few modifications. Thanks for the help. Here are pictures....I hope. </FONT>

Cool! I just won the bide on a saddle a few days ago. Haven't seen it yet myself, but looking forward to it. It is funny, ater all the research, and the decision is made that you really want it, that last few minutes on the bid seem to go on for an eternity! Congrats. Hope it works out.

Thank you for the info. I didn't realize that I would be striking the tools hard enough to crack marble through leather! After all these years of keeping this marble safe, i would hate to crack it like that. I would have thought it could hold up if properly mounted and supported. Live and learn. I will keep thinking about it. The links are excellent. I will consider everything. Maybe just get a block from the local monument maker and try it out. Could be that i suck at carving and stamping so much, that jumping in to a full work bench project is a waste of time and money. I may be the guy that only was able to make rough-out saddles.

LOL, totally get the forehed thing! So, suede as a liner...and i would have thought grout! Ok, I can understand how that works as well. Being an ex timberframer, i tend to build everything...um...heavy. I guess tapping a mallet on a small tool aginst leather...yeah, i was over thinking things a bit. I can see how being able to lift off the marble could be an advantage, though i dread moving it again for anything. I like the suede leather pad/insulator idea though. I could work later at night, should i have an obsessive moment, and maybe not keep the wife awake. I had built a plywood and foam lined shipping case for it, (the marble) and it is presently a partition wall down in the goat barn ...yeah, they haven't a clue. I did, however, build it so i can slide the partition out, should i ever use it. What can I say, the marble was free....I think it has cost a fortune to carry it around though. Penny wise....

I have a 3'x4' x1" piece of Marble athat I have hauled 3000 miles, knowing that "someday" I may actually use it. So, I was wondering if it would be an appropriate size for a work top for leather carving and stamping. If so, do you have any suggestions on how you have set your table up, and is there anything you wish you'd have done differently. I was thinking I would build a solid woood bench, and cover it with dura-rock and then install my marble top. Just like a kitchen counter. This marble weighs I believe, close to 200 pounds. I was also thinking about putting the table on industrial urethane casters that lock. Just for ease of movement. I am pretty sure that I would not have any 'bounce' and that it would be very solid. Lastly, does your table tilt at all? If so, is it fixed at a tilt, or tilt-able, or is flat the only way to go? I think while I am learning the saddle making process, i can learn to carve and stamp on some scraps. I'm sure I can order leather scraps from somwhere. (?) Thanks for your input. Dennis

Ed, I have a couple pieces of Ipe in my shop/basement. Have you tried using any? It is extremely dense and heavy. Don't know if that is a good thing, or a bad.

Again, incredible.

Hey Andy, I'm amazed by the texture and depth of the tooling. It really Pops! It reminds me of those artists that do pencil drawings and they come out looking like a black and white photograph. The level of talent around here is just . . . stupefying! I love it, thanks for sharing. D

Cool. Thank you.

My better half's surgery table at the Vet clinic (for small animals) raises, lowers, tilts, spins and folds. I will have to take a closer look at how it all works. May it can be modified. Think she'll miss it? Wonder how she'd 'splain that one to her boss? I'm sure that you can get used ones that are being discarded due to remodeling.

Thanks Denise (?) (50/50 chance right?!?!?) You too Rod, So, , there you have it. I finally get it. I have read similar points made by the saddle makers, but there was always a post to the contrary. Someone, like myself (or the guy that recently posted and after recommendations from some truly great saddle makers, still elected to go with a saddle of questionable quality), could easily believe that some saddle makers just build a saddle to fit a group of horses and some micro-fit. That for a truly custom, high end saddle, you will pay many thousands and it will fit like a glove. That, obviously, is just not reality, nor is it practical, as I now understand. One maker may take more time or even get more personally involved in the fitting process, as in, actually flying out to do the fitting themselves before building the saddle, but ultimately, the tree will be made to fit in the middle of a range. I would have thought that the difference would be that the tree is made to exact specifications. So, what you are paying for, is expertise, experience, craftsmanship, and brand. Quality aside, I know that if I bought a Circle Y, or Big Horn, or Tex Tan, or even a Clinton Anderson Aussie, there is a good chance that it will fit comfortably. If the saddle horn should 'pop off' at a team roping event , I would be humiliated, and angry as hell at. . .whom? Circle Y? Tex Tan? These are just buildings and places of employment. Nobody but their name to it! Too many people, their name is still important. Nobody wants to have their name become Mudd, so I have a good feeling that the horn won't pop off of one of Bruce's saddles, or Keith's or Brents saddles, or Rod and Denise's tree. The saddle will fit and likely carry him through a variety of physical changes. I believe there are a lot of "Master" saddle makers here. The level of talent on this forum is uncanny. I would now recommend to someone looking for a good saddle, to find a reputable saddle maker and have one Hand Made. It will fit your horse, and somebody is staking their personal reputation on its quality and craftsmanship. You don't have to have a Dale Harwood or a Keith Siedel to have a truly great saddle, though, they may ultimately have more "collectors" value in the end, but you can have a very well made saddle that fits remarkably well for the $3k range. I also understand how it would be a lot better for somone to find a well made used saddle for $1500 then it would be to buy a brand new saddle for $1500. Hmm, sorry if I let the topic slip away a bit. This thread should not get lost. It should be referred to a lot of 'newbies' that come in saying, "I need help finding a saddle." It really clears things up.

Interesting points Bruce. The "range" makes good sense, as well as the question as to what the limits of the range actually are. So, maybe you have a saddle built for your primary (or only) horse, and hope that it fits other horses in the future. At least the first horse will be golden, and people being creatures of habit, may tend towards a certaint 'type' of horse, therefore their saddle tends to be serviceable over a variety of horses for that persons 'taste' in horses.

Funny, I was thinking about the term Hand made Custom saddle myself. For me, I came to the conclusion that, if was custome made for a horse, it is a custom saddle on that horse. If it were a custome made saddle for a person to the specs he/she wanted, as in design or artwork, then in his ownership it is a custom saddle. If I buy that saddle from him for my horse. I am the proud owner of a Handmade saddle. Albeit, one that was custom built for someone else. Does that make sense? As far as the standards thing, again, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding. As things are right now, I could order a 7/8ths rigged saddle from one person here, show it to another and that person may say, "Um, that looks a bit like a three quarter rig to me." And it may well be. It might not. But, if we could agree on a consistent way of measuring the 7/8ths position on a tree, something that would work for all but the most unique trees, we would have a Standard. So, I as a consumer, if I decide i just had to have a 7/8ths rig for my hand made saddle, regardless of who built it, ti would be measurably in the same place. You as an expert may say to the customer, the Standard placement of 7/8ths is a bit forward for your horse, i recommend we move it 1'2 inc back of standard. You still have all the flexibility in the world. Now, when you post a picture of it and someone here says, is that a 7/8ths rigging on that, you would say, No i moved it 1/2" back of standard due to the conformation of the particular horse. We would all, knowingly, nod our heads and understand. does that make more sense? That goes for the variety reference points to the saddle. It absolutely does nothing to change how you actually the saddle. That way too, there are no egos to step on, or atleast shouldn't be. It is just a matter of communicating measurments and references in the same language. No matter where you want to ultimately place things.Sorry Denise, my comment was just a tease. Hence the wink. ;+)

I gotta' admit, When i read that article last October (in the November Issue), I thought, "Great , everything I thought i was learning just got bounced on its ear!" From the article: Should each saddle be made for each individual horse's measurements? Harwood: Absolutely not. A saddle will outlast many a head of horses. If the average saddle won't fit, get rid of the horse, not the saddle. Stormes: No... Maloy: Only if you have a freak horse. Willemsma: If you make a saddle to fit one horse, what do you do if the horse dies? Schwarz: That's just foolishness. One saddle will last for many horses lifetimes. Pedirni: Absolutely not. Bean: That's very rarely necessary. Mecum: No. Most horses' backs change from 4 to 12 years of age and from season to season. Considering the circulation of Western Horseman Magazine and how many people it reaches, the names of the saddle makers they interviewed and the things that were said, how does one then say that it is necessary for a saddle to be built specifically to the measurements of a specific horse? So, I see Dusty's point. I thought of saying something about the article back then but the thread had previously gone a little sideways. This way, I can hold Dusty up in front of me as a shield since he is older and should know better! Seriously though, Many people, myself included, recognize the value in a hand made saddle by a true craftsman. But let's face it, these saddles cost more than most of our horses do. I believe that most people, that are concerned about a high quality saddle being for the sake of the horse; would step up to a hand made saddle for three, four or five grand, assuming they are in that financial position. On the other hand, I doubt to many of them think of it as a saddle specifically for that horse and will dispose of the saddle when the horse is no longer being ridden....for what ever reason, death, sale, injury, retirement, what have you. Now, yes, I had an uncle that seemed to buy a new Pick-up or Suburban everytime the ashtray got full, but these people are a small part of the equation. . .and weird. So, what is middle ground? And thank you Blake: Indeed. I'm a barefoot trimmer, and I could go on for pages about horse feet. I know of a Very pricey Warmblood that has developed "Bucking" issues. He is being "trained" as if this acute onset of issues is behavioral. OMG! If you could see this poor creatures feet! He is all but foundered. When I politely as possible mentioned it...well, I am not welcome there anymore... So, they continue with the saddle fittings and trainers and what not....anyways, getting off topic. _____________________________________________ I do think about some of the points made by all of you as well as the article. I look at our 3 1/2 year old and know that he has a couple more years to grow. Plus, just starting out under saddle, he is going to develop musculature and and other conformational changes. Theoretically, i am looking at about $4000. per year in saddles, until age 7 through 12 and then he will probably change again. So, I watch the clinicians go from horse to horse with the same saddle and it isn't too often that they seem to have to ride in the owners saddle because theirs is not going to fit well enough. And, what is well enough? If I had a plaster mold of my horses back made, sent it to Denise and Rod and had them make the perfect tree to match that mold, then sent the tree to my choice of fine makers, it very well could be two years before that saddle touches my horse. The horse will be a totally different animal by that time. I do believe that there has to be a pretty broad range of fit. And I doubt that there will ever be a "Perfect Fit". Because, that would only be a moment in time, and with the horse and rider in a momentary position. Saddles are pretty static, horses and people are hugely dynamic. Ok, pushing the "Add Reply" button with a little trepidation. P.s. I am NOT a saddle fitter, and honestly would likely need help with fitting. But, on the other hand, this thread has a lot to do with why it is so hard for people to really learn "saddle fitting". No?

So. . .um. . .No? ;+)

Shakin my head and grinning. Thinking How cool is that! Love this forum.

Interesting points. As far as full quarter horse and Semi-Quarter horse etc., I think we could all agree, even me, that those terms would quickly find there way to total obsolesence in the standardization effort. They are nearly useless. But, like Johanna mentioned, there is the card system. If that or something similar were to become the standard, then the previous mentioned terms would be replaced by numbers or the results of what ever measurement system that is accepted, uses to represent the results. Like pants, we all know that if I order a 34w32L, we can get a pretty good image of my frame size. If I order a 44w 32L, a whole new image comes to mind, yet none of you have ever seen me. That is the differnce between using a system that accounts for variations, such like the card system provides, versus ordering pants by small, average, average med. tall, large and short. Those terms mean as much to a real saddle artist as they do to the fit of the product. What I was suggesting is not removing that which makes you unique and special, but in fact, make it even that much better than production. Because, if the customer can wrap their head around just how important it is and how involved it is to truly get a saddle to fit a horse and rider, they know that they just cannot get that from a production company. To the consumer, it is as simple as Full, Quarter, Semi and regular, and that they can get for thousands less. I seriously doubt most people even know that there are variations in trees, other than those four common terms. If professional customer saddle makers could speak a common language amongst themselves, explain how it works and how the intricacies are what makes your saddles so much better than a click and stitch rig, you wouldn't have to work so hard to establish the value in your product to those that can pay for them, but just don't really understand why they should. That is only a small but significant part of it though. Exactly. So when you build a saddle and someone is admiring it and they ask, "So, is that a 7/8ths rig?" You just say what? It is what is is based on the horse it was measured for? Again, the questiopn is in your explanation. You now told us that you have a way that you measure for the rig position. It is that part that helps make your saddle custom. Maybe it is the best way possible. It sure isn't something that BIG HORN saddle company is going to do. But to some variation, it is something that each one of you will. Again, i don't suggest you change your method if you don't want to, just create a standard way of measuring it, from specific points, so that during a discussion or fitting, everyone "gets" the picture. that doesn't take away from the fact that you may put the rigging in a different place for one horse than say, Keith or Tex or myself. But we will all know where it is located based on the references. That way too, should you decide to discuss rigging locations with others on the board, and four or five of you are discussing the pros and cons, it will be based on the same reference points. Otherwise, one may be speaking Japanese, one Chinese, one Russian etc... and all ultimately be saying the same thing, but since you don't speak the same language, you always have to translate or agree to disagree when infact, you agreed. How is the artistry lost in that? Let me quickly say, before i get nuked, I am not trying to come here and make changes. I will gladly learn what I can from everyone and make my own mistakes. It was just a thought I had while drinking a cup of coffee yesterday morning. Thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion, and educational for the ignorant. Um, yes...that would be me. Also, i am not a seller, proponent or opponent of the "Card System". It is just a handy example.

I don't think i understand how it would affect the individuality in design or the "artistry". Generally, I can order a size 7 1/2EE boot from Dan Post and another from a custom boot maker. Chances are good they will both fit. Once in awhile there will be boots that run outside the 'standard'. The custom will have the benefit of fine hand craftsmanship and the other will have a bit more of a production feel...and price. Johanna, that is a good example of a place to start. Hard to get everyone to agree, but maybe someone has a better easier way. That is the idea behind this topic. There are many aspects to saddle making that can be addressed.

. . .gotta' git sum paper towels to clean the coffee spray off'n ma' computer scrin.

Geeze, you guys have absolutely ruined me! A couple years ago, I would have been happy to go down to the local tack shop and buy a "Big Horn" saddle for $600 and ride off into the sunset. Now When I am at the tack shop and the sales girl says, "Hey what do you think of this one?" (pointing to a $750 production saddle) I have to bite my lip to keep from saying, There is now way in 'ell that is going to sit on my horse! Gives me the creeps just thinking about it! To my own credit, I NEVER had any attraction to a 'cordura' saddle! :+) Even a 'free' education ends up costing a fortune! I'm not complainin'! Glad to be learning. . .

I tend to 'hang out' in the background, and maybe still should. . .but. . . I read a lot from the archives, follow links to personal websites of members that have their own business websites showing their work and philosophies. I am attempting to assembel a good working knowledge of saddle building in the hopes that I someday, have the opportunity to build one myself (with a lot of help from you people). The hardest thing so far, is the lack of consistency in measurements of. . .well. . .just about anything you can measure. For example, one may say they use a line from the center of the post, down through the center of the bar and that becomes their "Full" rig position. Another may have a slightly different approach, so, his full rig position is different. The same goes for bar angle, seat length, gullet so on and so forth. Saddle fitting and tree making all have this tendancy towards obscurity. Nobody can agree, as to what the standard is for measuring, therefore, there isn't any. One person may say, well this is a 93 degree bar, or this is a semi-quarter horse 6 1/4 width and 7 3/4 height but another asks "based on what?" Those numbers don't really mean anything because there is no standard. Anyone get tired of saying that? The "Industry" standard is to not have a standard in the industry. Ultimately, that works fine for the individual tree builder, and saddle maker, or the individual production company. The end result though, is confusion for the customer and poor fit for the horse, as well as confusion for those interested in learning the art and science of what you guys do. That may be nice from a job security aspect, but it would be a terrible shame if eventually, future generations referred to your trade a the "lost art" of saddle making. Of course, nothing that I propose will either encourage or prevent that from happening. It actually just sounded like a colorful addition to the paragraph. A Proposition. There are enough saddlemakers here to set standards. At first they can be standards as used between members, but no doubt will grow. This is certainly a way that "industry standards" can be established. It may require you as a group to propose different ways of measuring something, and then you try to come to an agreement on which way will be the standard that it is referred to in the future. You could call it a UCSM Standard (United Coalition of Saddle Makers) or something catchy like that. It DOES NOT mean you must measure things that way in building your saddles. But it may mean that some of you may need to become bilingual if you aren't willing to work with something different. You could always say that yours is a 7/8ths rig (but it's a full rig by UCSM standards) or something to that effect. Ultimately though, measuring from a different place to get to the same result, doesn't change the result, just the way you measure it, hence refer to it. You would no longer have to give long confusing statements on how you got that measurment, everytime you answer a question on the topic. You could just say it is a UCSM measurment and it would be a "Pinned" post on how it is accomplished. Eventually, it could grow to an industry standard, and that could be good for you, the customers and most of all, the horses. Ok, now that i just wrote that, it does seem unlikely , but what the hey, I took time to write it, so I will give it a shot.

No, I just visited the website and also watched the video he had. Just looking at the placement of the saddle leathers made me wonder. I will be passing on these saddles I think.

Curious if anyone knows about Jeremy Stead saddles. http://ranchsaddle.com/index.php?cPath=7 I am curious as to how one can build a wade on a wood and rawhide tree and sell new in the $1500 price range. The stirrup leathers in the photos all seem too far back, am i wrong, is it just the photo? I need a good saddle (wade) to get me by for awhile until I can get mine custom built. Wanted to stay around $1500 for a good used one. Then the Wife found this and it made me wonder. Any honest opinions? You can PM if you want. Thanks for the help.

No, they only zip around the lower leg to get around a boot.