Newfman

I think that there is a big disparity in perceptions of quality from one person to the next. My wife and I are sort of 'foodies'. We love to cook, we love to dine at really good restaraunts (back when we could afford it). We don't exactly live in an affluent community these days. Just a little country town, of about 1500 people. Everybody would talk about how great the restaraunt is up the road, and they have such great food. So, one day we went. It was basic fare, it was bland, it was all but completely unseasoned. It. . .was awful. We don't get why the place stays in business. We tried it a few months later, and it was the same exact thing, so we didn't "catch them" on an off night. A client of mine bought a saddle for about $250. It was NEW! It was a western saddle, and it weighed about 20 pounds. I'm not sure what is was made of. It was supposedly leather, but with as much saddle as was there, it should have weighed almost double. She swears it is the greates saddle she has ever had. It is a fantastic saddle. That is where I was struggling. You don't know, what you don't know. That being said, it is your horse and your money. Nobody here, I think, will tell you "Not" to buy something. they may warn you, or show you alternatives, but if you ask about quality of something, they will have no problem telling you about that. Their info is good. You just have to figure out what is going to work for you, and what you are willing to pay for. They can build you an 18" saddle. It will last you for generations if you take care of it. Sounds like you must ride a pretty big horse, so making sure the saddle fits the horse is every bit as important as it fitting your butt. The damn things are expensive. I'm feeling your pain. But, it hardly covers what it costs to build, plus pay the makers a decent wage. Dennis

I looked around for a couple years before buying my western saddle. You really do pretty much get what you pay for it seems. I bought a real nice used saddle on E Bay. It was hand made by a reputable saddle maker. I was able to get the name of the maker and the saddle serial number from the seller. From that, i was able to get input from the folks here, as well as get all of the specs. on the saddle from the maker. Even at that, my winning bid was $1600. I would have been willing to go to 2200. That saddle sold new for 4 about 8 years ago (I think that is the time frame). Any higher than that and I was going to have Brent Tubre make a basic roughout wade for me. He is a member here. I would have given up the tooling, and a few extras. That was the plan anyways. A good hand made saddle is going to start around $3,000. Being somewhat of a low income blue collar worker, I came up with two plans to be able to buy a saddle that was good enough for my horse. . .Tax Refund, and Credit Card. This way, I don't have to concern my self with the 5 year warranty thing so much. Now, I'm thinking more about years down the road, hoping that the third generation owner of my saddle be willing to have it restored when the time comes, hoping that they appreciate the quality and care put into the this saddle. This was all a huge eye opener to me as well. Once you have used and owned one, you will get a creepy feeling lifting a $700 production saddle off the rack at your local tack store. It is the difference between a Yugo, and a Mercedes. I can't really explain it any better. You won't be unhappy, even if you have to do a little saving, or financing. (You could also buy a very special Keith Seidel Saddle, put in in a glass case for ten years as an investment, and it will probably beat your 401K!) Point is, these saddles don't lose much in value. In five years, you could likely sell it for more than half of what you paid. Some saddles that are only 8 or 9 years old, (like a Frekkers wade I had looked at) cost slightly more than she paid for it new. I didn't buy it, but somebody else did! A production saddle will be worth a few bucks on the used rack at the tack shop. Take a look, and you will see. We have some "new" saddle makers here, that are turning out some nice rigs, with the help and support of the senior members here. You could likely get a much better built saddle from one of these newer guys just getting in to the hand made saddle industry, than any production saddle you could find. Could be a compromise on price, with out having to give up on quality. Hope that helps a little,. Good luck.

Don't I feel silly. Maybe in a larger photo, Sugar would have not tricked me. The bumper and line are kind of iconic in the Newfy Water Rescue world, and being all wet, well. . . Yup, my slick is a prized possession. My chisles are hand forged by Barrr Quarton in Mcall Idaho. As I recall, he is the only American that is certified to forge Samauri Swords for Japans Emperor. Regardless, he makes a hell of a framing chisel! I'm from out near Montana. Lewiston, Idaho. Just down the hill from Missoula. Montana is still one of my favorite places in the world, and I have traveled a bit. I would someday like to build a Timberframe/strawbale home on a nice little parcel out west somewhere. At least I can dream about it! My apologies to Sugar for my over zealousness. ;+)

Sorry for getting off topic, but, too RMR I post this. . . and this. . . Not too many brown ones out there. Henna was a Water Rescue fanatic. It is what she lived for. Couldn't help but notice your avatar. Sorry folks. . .It's a Newfy thing! Now back to the serious subject of this topic. . . .

I can see you are taking that the wrong way. In other words, how do we "really" know, since we actually cannot ask. It is quite possible, though you have taken painstaking efforts to get as great a fit for a clients horse as possible, you have to depend on your client to recognize that their horse is having an issue with the fit over time. After spending four grand on a custom hand made rig, they aren't likely to blame the saddle. More often than not, the horse is " just acting an idiot and needs more time being trained". Unfortunately, the horse can't just say, "Hey, it is starting to give me a pressure point on my left shoulder." The question you posted was a bit ambiguous, so I am tring to adress your concern. You seem to take issue with me chosing a treeless saddle.

Brent, that is a great question. I could ask the same thing of the saddles you have made for your clients. I don't mean that in a argumentative way. I assume that, since we can't really "ask" the horse, we have to infer an answer to that question, by observing how our horses react to being saddled with that same saddle over and over again for one. If they get soured to the idea, it would be a good indication that they don't like it. If they become crochety and unmanageable during riding, one might believe that they have issues with the saddle, particularly if a different saddle brings a better result. On that link that I provided, is a "gallery" of customers. There is one woman named Theresa Mattor, riding Cookie. Cookie is a Newfoundland Pony Clyde cross. She went through a few saddles trying to find something that would work. Cookie would literally drop to her knees on her forehand for seemingly no reason. Dr. Mailhot from Branch Equine tried everything to figure out the reason for it, musculoskeletal, physiological, nutrition, saddle fit, rider imbalance, but could come up with nothing. Theresa bought Cookie the Barefoot saddle a couple years ago, and there hasn't been an issue since. They hack around a lot. I know this first hand, because I am her horses hoof trimmer, and I have worked with the Vet on hoof rehab, and know that she is a very up-to-date equine Vet. I would also assume that Deputy Myer wouldn't spend day after day wrestling with a 2,000 pound Belgian over a saddle comfort issue. As I also posted, these saddles are used in endurance racing, and those folks are pretty neurotic about getting their horses soundly across the finishline. http://www.barefoot-...about-Barefoot/ this is a link to people presumed to be experts in their equine related fields, and what they have to say about the treeless saddle. There is also this PDF that may do a better job of answering your question than I could ever do. I know that they say that they have performed pressure testing. It is hard to get around the results of that, with out flat out lying. You can't get away with that for long in the internet age. http://rokrakarate.c...addleSystem.pdf I'm guessing that there are some treeless saddles, as well as tree'd saddles that have hurt their fair share of horses. The folks on this website, like Denise Nikkle, Brent Tubre (yup, you) Bruce Johnson, and Keith Seidel to name a few, have made me very wary of saddle fit, and suspicious of every rig I see on a horse. So I didn't go in this direction lightly. I would ditch this saddle in a heartbeat if it doesn't work for my horse. I'm neurotic about horse feet, and saddle quality and fit isn't too far behind. ...edited for spelling and clarity.

So I finally found a saddle for Buffy the Belgian. I went with the reccomendation of Deputy Sheriff Gary Myers and "Max" of Ohio's, Summit County Mounted Unit. He is riding a treeless saddle by Barefoot Saddles (www.Barefootsaddles.net) ( which is where the photo came from). The 'Cheyenne' model is what he is riding and it's design reportedly would work well for my "big boned" girl. I would have really liked to go with a western saddle, but with her coffee table back and oil drum sides, I would have no feel or contact whatsoever. So, I am going to the dark side, and riding an english style saddle. Should be interesting. Being treeless, these saddles should be used with a special pad, so I have ordered that as well. Barefoot saddles are pretty popular in the competetion endurance world, which is more riding than Buffy would ever go for, so we should be good to go. Now I just have to find me a "good" (quarter) horse for my Bob Beecher Wade. (heavy sigh) Not so easy to find in upper New England. Thanks for the input folks. Now Tom, I may have a little time off next week, so I may need to sneak over and spy on that saddle yur buildin!

LOL, that is the best idea yet!

Hi Tom, Yes, that's right, I guess you saw my little bucking bronco extraordinaire! Yup, he hasn't changed. Still can't be ridden and all the trainers and clinicians around here are totally afraid of him. Hence the need for a saddle for my Belgian. I have a great handmade Bob Beecher Wade, but it fits everyone elses's horse, but not the BFB. It fits my Bronco as well, but it isn't fun riding in it for a few seconds here, and a few seconds there. We are hoping that this is our last tight year ( $$$ ), so I'm going to have to be pretty frugal, but don't want the ol' mare to become uncomfortable because of it. I could actually just sit on a boat cushion while riding crosslegged, as she has a lot of room up there. I'm looking at a Barefoot brand saddle as well. Just looking at options. I'd like to check out the saddle making process some time. I had the opportunity to pop in and see Bob Klenda when I was in Rifle Colorado a couple months ago. It would have been short notice though and I didn't want to be rude. I have no doubt he would have been welcoming, but, my manners won over my curiosity. It is good to have someone making saddles in our area. I will have to pay you a visit. I'm still wearing my snow shoes right now, but am about to change them for dive fins. Cheers Dennis You're gonna' saddle what!?!?

Hey folks, I have been thinking about something like a Police saddle for my BFB mare. That is text brevity for Big Fat Belgian. I was thinking about the kind that the Manhatten Mounted Police use, since they seem to ride Belgians a bit, albeit less round ones. This could make getting the right size, less of an issue. She is actually looking pretty good at the moment, after a long winter on hay. She could use some miles though, and so could I. I would love a custom Wade, but it is so not in my price range at the moment. Does anyone have any suggestions, leads on good used gear and who makes this type of saddle? I would be intersted in other suggested types as well. What do the Mounties ride? They mostly ride Candadian Horses though, so Belgian size may still be a custom issue. What names should I look for as far as good craftsmanship goes? Thanks for your input. Dennis

So it doesn't sound like 'rinsing' is necessary with these products, but maybe just wiping down with a clean damp sponge. My first cleaning with this saddle, since it was a bit dry as well, was Murphy's in a bucket of water, a scrubrush, and a garden hose. Since then, I don't let it get too bad and just do maintenance cleanings and conditioning. I can do that, in my kitchen.

Thanks Chris. There doesn't seem to be a lot of application info for it in regards to saddles. Floors, not a problem.

Hey folks, I had taken my saddle apart (Bob Beecher Wade #30) and was giving it a pre-Spring cleaning. Growing up, my Dad was all about Saddle soap for leather. He had a tin of it, and would have me rub it into my baseball mitt to soften and preserve the leather. That was about 40 years ago. These days, my other half (an East Coaster) says you should use Murphy's oil soap on saddle leather. She is from the hunter/dressage side of the fence, and her saddles have a black coating. That, and she normally uses Lederbalsam, which I used on my saddle last year as a final dressing/preservative or whatever. So, anyhow, I got out the Murphy's and at the last moment...chickened out and just gave my saddle a good rub down with Fiebings 4way cleaning care. My saddle is stamped but with a rough out seat. I didn't do anything to the seat. . .because I haven't a clue what to do. I did the olive oil thing when I bought the saddle last year, on a reccomendation, but don't think I will go that way again. My real question is, should one use saddle soap or Murphy's on western saddle leather, stamped and or roughout, how do you use it, and do you rinse it off after or just let it dry? With the Murphy's, I was going to mix some arbitrary amount with a bucket of warm water, and give the saddle a scrub. I just couldn't get past the thought that this sounded somehow. . . wrong. So, can anyone clear the air. By the way, the Fiebings worked just fine, the saddle looks great, BUT, am I preserving the leather as best I can for a lifetime of service? And what about that rough-out seat? Thanks for the info. I know this has been kicked around a bit, but I haven't really found anything on the how to apply part, especially when it comes to Murphy's. My saddle leather, by the way, is in bretty good condition. The only thing "dried out" is the last 6 inches of a few of the saddle strings, and I have been trying a variety of things with that. They seem to be coming around. Dennis

Yes, but it just happens to be at a very beautiful end! Sounds like a fair trade.

Excellent question! I've been looking for new boots as well, and have the same problem. Seems like everyone makes costume boots these days. So far, the best deal i have been able to find, via the net has been www.drewsboots.com They start a bit higher than you wanted, but they are hand made. I have a pair of Leuchesse boots that i have owned for 18 years that cost $300 US, and Dres handmade start at around $350. All the boots i have found in the $150 range feel like they are made of vinyl. The folks here likely have found quality makers, and they could be right on this forum, considering the level of saddle makers! My plan is to go without, and save here and there, and buy hand made. A set of Ariats, 'may' last you 5 years, if you are giving them the punishment that you describe,( and I think 5 years is generous because i have held a set of Ariats) that is generous. You got twenty years out of the hand made ones. 20 divided by 5....Did those hand made boots cost your folks $600? That is how much 4 sets of Ariats are going to cost you to get 20 years out of boots that won't fit like a custom. Just sharing the psychology and manipulation that I have been using on myself. Hope it helps! Dennis

It was explained to me many years ago about Appy's. The reason why the indians (Native Americans) were such fierce fighters in battle was because they rode Appaloosa horses. After riding and dealing with an Appy for a few miles on your way to battle, you arrived quite seriously ready to kill something!

I use Lederbalsam on the leather seats in my Cummins Ram. It makes the leather soft and plyable, but i can't say i notice a difference in tackiness. I would actually find it annoying. My better half uses it on her Duett dressage saddle, and doesn't think it has any tack. Admittedly, I use it on my Terri Beecher made Wade saddle, (which I still think is one of my most prized posessions, thanks to the folks here) but I don't use it on the seat, as I don't, ...um.....ok, I have no idea why i don't use it on the seat! I think it does a great job protecting the rest of the leather though, and there is no tackiness anywhere. I would hate that. Not that I have any real expertise, but I think your client needs to learn to start riding the horse, and not the saddle. Quit thinking of it as a seat, maybe?? You would have a hard time not offending them though. I had a hard time explaining to a client that she was 'too big' for her quarter horse. A lot of tap dancing and soft shoeing. If all else fails, 2 inches of the rounded tip of a broom handle, screwed down to the center of the seat may help. Sort of a trailer hitch effect! Yeah, I know, that wasn't very nice. Just kidding. Seems like anything 'sticky' will look messy and darken like pine tar on a baseball bat. Glue some hook and latch to the seat of thei jeans and the saddle. This way, they can get off and on, and not slide artound. :+) The local apple orchard is having an outdoor, harvest music concert, I will see if they are willing to make it a benefit concert for you and your beloved citrus tree. Apple tress are hardier, Appletini anyone?

Very, very. . .cool! Nice job.

Success! I was able to shorten and re-rivet the leathers at the buckles. Having found a leather shop and store up in Lewiston, Maine ( http://www.mainelineleather.com/ ) I was able to take the hour and ten minute drive to get some supplies. They are mostly into non-saddle stuff, but their little retail store had enough to get me on track. they caryy a lot of Al Stohlmans stuff. So, when taking the blevins buckle off, I found that not only was it riveted, and stitched, but glued as well. By the time I trimmed off what I was discarding, all but an inch of the glued and stitched leather remained. I was able to split it apart and finish the job. I also spared the last inch of stitching. It helped keep everything in line. I will restitch it when i get the supplies. The stitching thread reminded me of what we used to use on sails and assorted things around the sailboats. Somewhere I have a stitching awl with some waxed line that looks exactly like the stuff used in the stirrup leathers. It is actually a flat thread of cotton with wax impregnated in it. I hand stitched some shade cloths together for a 36' sailboat and also about 30 feet of shade cloth for an awning. Took for friggin ever! Thought I'd never feel my fingers again! I am wondering if it is the same thing for stitching leather? Anyhow, my stirrups now fit me and the fenders are completely intact. Infact, it looks like I can lower them a notch. Thank you for the help guys! By the way, the owner of Maine line leather...was drooling over my saddle! I don't think he had seen a hand made, hand tooled 'real' western saddle before. He was very impressed with the leather work and stitching. He was amazed that it was all stitched by hand! It was pretty cool. :+) Not a lot of that up here in Maine.

And again I thank you. I was just outside giving the saddle and all its assorted pieces a good scrubbing before I have to go to work Plenty of time right?!?! I heard a splashing that wasn't coming from my bucket of soapy water. I looked over to see my Brabant mare (European Heavy Belgian) try to climb up into the raised 55gal. heated water trough! Well, it was heated, and it used to hold 55 gallons. So, I have the saddle hanging in the basement to dry and I have to rush to the feed store to repair a water trough before work. I guess she was in the spring cleaning mood. With her, I can't leave a ladder up to the hay loft because I'm afraid she would try to climb it! She climbs everything!

I can shorten the strap 2 1/4". That just eliminates the bottom of the three old rivet holes and leaves 1/2" between the new bottom rivet hole and the beginning of the tooling. Is that a little close for comfort between the tooling and the rivet? I would have to remove the stitching ofcourse, and the old stiching path would just run-out off the end of the strap. There would be about an inch and a quarter left of the old stitching path. 3 inches would put my new rivers into the tooling. Seems that that would be a bit weak, no? I called my orthopedic surgeon about femur extensions...he hung up. I'm thinking that it's a no.

Thanks Andy.

I was able to shorten it closer to the fender and soak and re-twist it. I believe that will be sufficient. Is there any reason I should not just add three more holes to the tail end, as opposed to unriviting and shortening it from the buckle end? And what size punch is it for blevins buckles?

14 inches, not including the buckle.

Now that I have it taken apart, I can see that it isn't riveted up there where I thought it was.