deboardp
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Everything posted by deboardp
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@fredk this is another thread I started that proves I have a shop. In my apartment. Hope that helps change your mind.
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Can you tell me the exact amounts you used?
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I'm a 77 year old man who is disabled by exposure to agent orange during my service in the Vietnam War. I lived on a base cleared with that herbicide from which we flew combat missions of fighter escort and EW escort for the B-52's. We also connected the Vietnam command to the US by phone and teletype. I worked with that crew, in the multiplexing center. I became disabled in 2004 by the developing illnesses caused by herbicide exposure. I had to stop working and was homeless for 15 of the past 18 years. I became housed in September of 2023 because i received a HUD-VASH voucher. In 2022, mainly due to Jon Stewart, the comedian and talk show host, the US Congress passed the Pact Act which says that soldiers such as myself no longer has to prove they were exposed to herbicide if they were at particular places at particular times. Jon had yelled at Congress, "SHAME ON YOU!!" More than once, for not granting us disabled veterans disability compensation. (It's usually not possible to prove exposure.) So in December 2023 I was granted disability compensation, just 30 days ago. My disease disabilities add up to 190% disability, but of course they round it off to 100%. Although i had the housing voucher, my SS retirement benefits were roughly $500 a month shy of covering all my expenses, so until 30 days ago I was facing homelessness again without that $500 additional income. I had started making this sandal shop in September 2022 because I used to make a good sandal 50 years ago, and I didn't think the VA would ever compensate me. But now I'm being compensated and will not become homeless again in my 80's. I joined this leatherworker.net group because of all the questions I had about leather working and I've gotten most of my answers. If folks think I'm a troll I can leave. @fredk and @SUP had jumped on me for being humble so I instinctively explained why I am humble, which is that I'm trying to act like a Christian. Maybe if they stop trying to tell me I'm wrong to be humble I wouldn't explain why I am. I don't know how that makes me a troll.
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Nobody should respect me, and I certainly don't respect myself. I know myself. There's nothing good in me. That's called humility, a virtue. About getting stuff on the cheap, yes, I'm okay with that. That's why, if this Colorado Leather Balm works, I want to make my own, since I have 50 tins and lids. I'll give my customers a tin of it with each order.
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The can says that this Colorado Leather balm goes liquid at 95F. That's like close to how warm a sandal will get with a foot in it. A bit more beeswax will raise the melting point.
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Thanks for the warning about the wax. I'll reduce what I plan to use, maybe do 12.5% instead of 25% of the total weight. Lanolin smells great to me, too. It's a bit thin, not very pasty, although I haven't scooped any out of the bucket to work it with my hands. I'll know more when I pull the tallow and the lanolin out of their containers. I'll pinch a bit of each for a feel.
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I do like the way folks did it before. If the tallow doesn't stink up the sandal, I will be okay with it. After all, beef sides used to have beef fat in them, under them, etc, so putting it back is not such a new thing for the sides. Petroleum jelly seems like a cheap new way, typical of our western cheap culture. And since I put some vaseline on my leather, I noticed they don't actually welcome it. It stays mostly on the surface. I know, I should warm-wet the leather and rub it in. Still seems quick and cheap. I have standards (nose held in the air, accompanied by a sniff).
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I protest! I'm simply trying to find a grease recipe that will work for me! And apparently anything at all will work, but I want something that smells nice, makes the leather soft and supple, attractive, smells nice, and I have nothing else in the world to do, so there ya go. I do have problems, but they are not related to leather work. Brain damage is one. Hahaha. I got the Colorado Leather Balm today, and that stuff smells nice! Tallow, lanolin, beeswax, proportions unknown to me at this time. Probably on the MDS. It's not cheap! $30 for 8 ounces, plus tax and shipping. The instructions say just rub it in, no mention of warm water first. It smells sweet, too, and I looked to see if sugar was an ingredient. As for using petroleum jelly, I smeared some on a piece of veg tan, and it was absorbed partially, but the rest stayed on the surface for a week before I put the piece aside somewhere. I'm considering making my conditioner anyway, since I have everything. I wish I knew what ratios to use, for example for tallow, lanolin, and wax. Oz used 25% wax, 50% tallow, 25% lard. He said that's basically what the English saddlers have used for centuries. So if i did use tallow, it would be 25% wax, 50% tallow, and 25% lanolin. I could make a small batch. My tiny tools are due on Tuesday, for cutting the corners of my curved and sloped slots. Maybe I'll make a batch on Monday, like, 8 ounces. 2 oz wax. 4 oz tallow, 2 oz lanolin, put it to the schnoz. The tallows I have are different colors. I said this before. One is yellow and smells like hamburger run-off from cooking burgers. The other is pure white, creamy, very fine textured, and has almost no smell. When cold it has no smell that I could detect. On a warm heated sandal, I wonder. I guess I will find out. I'm going to use the Colorado Leather Balm on the first pair I make, for my grossly large feet, swollen from my various diseases. I'll report about aroma when the sandal has been worn and is warm.
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OK, have fun storming the castle. Let us know what you decide to use and how it turns out for you. Best wishes with the sandals. Will do, of course! Thanks for your best wishes!
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You're funny. Like I said, I'm not interested in oiling my leather. I'm making grease. I don't need to reference your formula for ratios of oils, because I'm not using oils. I think it's you that is not understanding, Scott.
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I thought the old guys used grease, you know, tallow and lard, not oil? Maybe it was just the English...
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Yes, they are heavy with oil. Saying they are not, that they are recipes with oil in them, does not make them not heavy with oil. If I recall correctly, one of your first recipes had two full 16oz bottles of oil in it! Your conditioner is not a grease but is an oil. I had considered using an oil in my grease if the grease was too thick, but I thought maybe a tablespoon or two in an 8 ounce portion of grease. I'm not going to oil my leather, I'm going to warm-and-wet stuff it with grease.
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I should have said I can smell the animal meat. Lanolin does smell stronger but it's not a meat smell and it is positively a pleasant smell. In deference to the monks who do not eat meat ever, and to vegans, vegetarians, and my sensitive olfactory function I'll walk the narrower path.
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I don't have any experience making conditioner. 50 years ago in my first shops i used a little pure neatsfoot oil and never gave conditioning a thought. Today, I want to be sure my sandals last at least 2-3 decades. When I started looking for the best conditioner for the leather I use - vegetable tanned leather - I came across the conditioner formula that English saddlers have been using allegedly for centuries, and read that it had no oil whatever in it. It had two kinds of saturated fat - tallow and lard - beeswax, and lanolin. It was heated, stirred, put in tins where it cooled. It was a thick grease. So your recipes are heavy with oil and that's why I'm not interested in them. You also mentioned using the orange oil as a solvent to help work the conditioner into the fibers of the leather and if I recall you mentioned that there are other solvents. The most common solvent in chemistry is water, and its ability to dissolve is enhanced by heat. When the English Saddlers use their saddle grease they used warm water to wet the leather and let it work for a period of time, I believe it was just a few minutes. Vegetable tanned leather, having had everything but its collagen fibers removed during tanning, soaks up this warm water. It's pores open. When the absorption and opening is complete, the saddler uses his bare hands and massages the grease into the open pores of the leather, grain side, flesh side, and the edges. The rubbing and massaging creates heat, which makes the grease more fluid, and able to penetrate into the open poresWhen it seems the leather is well greased through and through, the saddle is put aside for three days so it can dry. When the water has evaporated out the pores and the leather is dry, the saddler rubs the leather with a cloth to remove surface residue. Then putting a small amount of cod liver oil on his cloth, he puts a shine on the leather. This cod liver oil is not a conditioner and it is not absorbed by the leather, because the leather is already stuffed with tallow, lard, wax, and lanolin. So the leather has no oil at all in it, none at all. I had only considered using oil as a thinner, but after revisiting the above, I'm inclined to forget about using any oil at all in my conditioner, making my own version of leather grease instead. As @chuck123wapati said, in his usual brilliant manner, why use a degreaser in your grease? It just doesn't make sense. @SUP agrees. As do I, obviously. Chuck is a great resource. The only difference? I'm leaning toward a grease formula that doesn't include tallow and lard. Since I can smell the animal in both those products, I prefer to not use them. I prefer things that have a decidedly strong pleasant smell, like the beeswax and the Lanolin. I'll think about using coconut oil rather than the fish oil for the shine. That might help the coconut smell be prominent. We'll see. Now that the ruminant is out, I'll continue to ruminate the shine. Feedback is welcome from all.
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Exactly!
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Instinctively, I am concerned about this product. It's a solvent that puts off heat as it evaporates. It can irritate the skin. If it evaporates it will no longer be in the leather. If I use an oil, I want it to stay in the leather so that the grease (my conditioner) will stay soft and not become cake. My leather will be in contact with skin, or separated only by the thickness of a sock, so for all those reasons I won't use it. Scott why do you buy so much of this orange oil in its various forms? What do you do with it? And why are you making so many batches of conditioner? What do you do with all those jars and tins of conditioners? From what you have written I get the impression that you have made quite a bit of conditioner in a number of configurations. Why? Just curious. What do think of coconut oil as an ingredient? Do you have any experience with it? I think that it would be a pleasant aromatic addition to my formula. Do you know what makes an oil go rancid? Is it the presence of unsaturated molecules in it? My friend and I thought that coconut oil would be stable long term because it is saturated.
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I just realized that it is a solvent, which will evaporate and leave the conditioner. I would rather have an oil. Orange oil? I wonder if there is such a thing.
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You ask some good questions. The monks are all vegetarians, and they are half my target demographic. The other half is lay people, who are probably a mix of vegetarian, vegan, and meat eater. However, I have a blessing to use whatever works best in the conditioner. Thus I am not concerned, not in the least, to losing a potential customer because of tallow in the recipe. I mean, good grief, they're okay with the animal's skin being on their feet, but not it's fat? What would be the reasoning there?? Actually, I don't care to know the reasoning, because it is most likely pulled out of that dark cavity. Or totally made up, designed to elicit some kind of sympathy or support or shared whining. Sheesh. Let them live with the consequences of their decisions. They will survive not having a pair of world class (I hope) leather sandals on their feet. As for the hot stuffing, yes that's done, as far as I know to create Latigo, chrome and other finished leathers, but it compromises the workability of veg tanned leather. Beveling the edges is not cleanly done, if my memory serves me, and a leather saturated with fats and waxes and oil will not glue well, I think. That's why my warm wet stuffing procedure will be done after the sandal is constructed. It will be done last. Burnishing of edges will be complete, stitching complete, then dyeing if requested, then warm wet stuffing. I think that the hot stuffed leathers like chrome tanned and Latigo also resist creasing and other tooling. I want to crease my strap edges and try doing a bead, too. That's done before conditioning and after wetting the leather with water. It's done after burnishing the strap edges and before gluing the dead end of the strap to the flesh side of the topsole. Good question about using just one fat. I read that lanolin is not technically a fat. It's missing something in its chemical structure, but it coats and protects wool from the elements, and helps collagen fibers in leather also. Funny I still haven't decided about using tallow. I did order two 8 oz jars of Colorado Leather Balm that @ScottWolf recommended, and I might use it on my first pair, the one for my feet, to see how it does. It's pricey, but if it works, who cares??? 4 ounces is only $20. The two big jars is $60 for the two of them. I am inclined to using only pleasant smelling things, which eliminates tallow and lard. The Abbott of the monastery gifted me a brick of wax when the candle shop asked him how much to charge me, and it smells great! The lanolin smells great. I think a drop or five of D-limonene might round out a terrific recipe. Especially since it's a fungicide. Do you have a link to a seller?
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Good grief! If a vegan heard about tallow being used she won't want sandals conditioned with tallow as an ingredient.
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Unless I am mistaken, vegetable tanned leather can then be processed with fats/ wax/ oils by stuffing, turning it into what we have here: Latigo leather, and other types. Regular vegetable tanned is not hot stuffed. Maybe other commentators can weigh in. I'm no expert on it, not even close. I just make sandals.
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No, I don't want to make a conditioner to apply on finished leather. I'm making a conditioner for vegetable tanned leather, which is basically collagen fibers without anything else in there with the fibers. It's an unfinished, dry leather without oils, waxes or fats in it. I want to hand-stuff my conditioner into the leather, after wetting it with warm water, pressing and massaging it into all surfaces of the leather, flesh side, edges, grain side, so that it penetrates deeply, all the way in, until it seems to be saturated with it. Then I will let it dry for 3 days or so and rub off whatever is on the surface, using a clean microfiber cloth, or perhaps a cotton dishtowel.Then I'll use a bit of cod liver oil on a clean dry cloth and rub the leather with it. This process will lubricate the collagen fibers of the leather so that the leather will become flexible, pliable, softer, and it will also be darker. It helps the sandal straps and topsole conform to the feet, and it will decrease the amount of rubbing of straps into feet that cause blisters. One of my goals of making this conditioner is to make the straps conform to the feet rather than cut into them. Another is to preserve the leather for decades. (I had a pair for 20 years before losing them. The top soles and straps had some cracks after 20 years, and I do not recall having a conditioner like what I am about to make. I know how hot stuffing in the tannery works. Vegetable tanned leather isn't hot stuffed, but chrome leather is. There are probably other kinds of leather that are hot stuffed. I work only with vegetable tanned leather, which takes a long time to tan and is expensive because of that. (I'm not interested in using other kinds of leather at this time.) But it is great for tooling, for all kinds of products: saddles, shoes, boots, sandals, bags, and more. I mostly made sandals 50 years ago, hundreds of pairs. I made a couple bags, a couple belts, a pair of pants with 1/4" strips of leather for stitching, and that leather was - well, I have forgotten the term - but it's very soft, the kind used with prosthetics. The pants were unlined - big mistake! - and only lasted one year. But they were gorgeous for half that time. So I work just with vegetable tanned leather. What kind of leather products do you make? I see that you joined leatherworkers.net in 2020, stating that your specialty is baseball. Do you make gloves? How long have you been doing what you do?
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I have a box of tins of dubbin!
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Just for the record, i didn't stay at the Holiday Inn last night either. Haha. So I'll cook with the macadamia nut oil, leave it out of my conditioner recipe. That leaves the beeswax and the Lanolin, and if it needs to be thinned I can reheat and use several drops of NFO. I have 2 quarts of the stuff, pure NFO, not the compound. @chuck123wapati uses it, so that's good enough for me. I don't know how much beeswax to use, or why it is used in a stuffing recipe, and apparently I'll never know why, but if the sandals look nice, smell nice, are a pleasure to handle, then I resolve to be happy about it. (Well, and if people want a pair!) I could use the tallow, too, and I will ruminate on that thought.
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I hope the IT fellow can clean up the mess above. I don't dare try.
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dikman, first I apologize for being undiplomatic with my response. To explain, I responded to what you said by noting the difference between pork lard being out in the elements, exposed to heat and light, and pork lard being in a container refrigerated. I pointed out that the former is exposed to air, and the latter, not so much, but still exposed to air somewhat. I assumed you knew that oxidation is one of the factors involved in the deterioration of leather, but it seems I am wrong, because you said it is irrelevant. (I just read an article that says that there are two main factors involved in the degradation of leather: oxidation and hydrolysis. Both processes dismantle the chemical and physical bonds of the collagen fibers of leather.) To me, my question seems relevant. Do conditioners minimize oxidation (and hydrolysis) of leather? If so, which ingredients do it better than others? Is there a best combination? I don't see anything wrong with this question. To me, it seems to be basic. I want my custom leather sandals to last for decades, not years. I also want the straps and the topsole to be pliable, form to the feet, resist degradation. I want my conditioner to essentially prepare them for life on someone's feet. So when you suggested I watch my pork lard in a tin can at room temperature for an indefinite amount of time, well, it was offensive. To me, It was offensive. Probably nobody else would be offended by having a reasonable question ignored, but I am always offended a little when someone ignores my question. Not knowing you, and not wanting folks here to think poorly of me, I should have answered diplomatically, after I cooled off a bit. I apologize, I'm a bit uncouth. I don't know how to get to the second half of your comment without losing this, so I'll submit this and go back and submit for the second half. Editing now. You said, "By asking you to do it, why not? You have the pork fat so your experience with it would provide all of us with valuable first-hand information, no different to what others do on here when trying something out. As to whether "stuffed leather" has air in it, I have no idea as it seems pretty irrelevant to me. I don't understand why you appear to be attacking me over this, if you want to use pork fat on your leather that's your business it doesn't bother me, I'm merely pointing out that what I've read so far about rendered pork fat gives me cause for concern about using it to treat leather. " Now that I'm cool, I see your point. It's a good one. I also now share this concern. If it goes rancid in a can (protected from air) at room temperature, what will it do in a body-heated pair of sandals? Will it stink them up? I'm now leaning toward my plan B recipe of lanolin, beeswax, and macadamia nut oil, because there's no connection to recently deceased animals. The sheep doesn't die when its lanolin is harvested, and it's sitting happily in a pail in the corner of my shop, on the floor behind the sewing machine. If I have wasted money by buying tallow and lard, that's fine. I'm learning in the process of trying to think through all the information I've been exposed to. (I can't say ...all the information I've gathered... because almost nothing sticks.) Thankfully, the basic principles seems to stick, sometimes.