Will a cb3200/3500 be overkill?

[Dominicgetsgnar]

Specific advice needed, I’ll try to provide all pertinent details….

I make marine accessories consisting of some of the thickest Dacron (polyester) sailcloth you can buy, layered with marine canvas, polyester binding tape, and several different webbings. Plus stainless and brass hardware (grommets, rivets, rings, buckles etc…) 

Iv been getting by with flatbed upholstery class machines namely a seiko sth-8bld-3 (135x17 needle system) until recently. New products are requiring me to see through thicker and thicker assemblies of said materials. 1/4” has turned into 3/8”+. The seiko can punch through them but will skip many many stitches and break threads often.

The majority of my products are 3-dimensional, requiring me to do a whole lot of gusset work, which is a ridiculous pain in the butt on the flatbed. Especially considering the size and stiffness of my assembled panels. Which are easily as stiff as decent quality flexible cutting boards. 
 

At the moment I’m exclusively using #135 bonded polyester thread. I’m not married to it though and not opposed to using #207 for all thick seams and gussets and external binding.

Im planning on using the flatbed for all initial assembly (layering and stitching) of the flat panels on my projects. Then switching to the new cylinder machine for attaching said panels together, thick webbing areas, gussets & binding. 

It feels like the cowboy cb3200 or 3500 equipped with toothed feed dogs and possibly the blanket foot would be a perfect machine for this work. 
 

I know it’s not leather but much of my material is resin impregnated, and therefore hard to the touch. So the high tension these cowboys have might be a blessing.

Unfortunately I’m in NY so there’s no dealers within a reasonable drive from my home.  
 

what do you awesome people think?

 

 

thanks,

Dominic

 

[RockyAussie]

I have to ask before I say too much, how much work of this type would you be putting through??? Is it for several hours in a day every day of the week? Is 3/8" the maximum you would ever need? This is a link to what over this side of the pond is called the Cowboy 6900 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tjjs5DPgJM

This machine will handle up to 1/2" thickness and for production work has a self oiling wick system which can be handy. It also has a knob up on top which allows you to raise the feet alternating height on the run if you get an extra thick bit, with a simple turn. Basically it is a copy of the Juki LS 1341. The feet use the very common Singer 111 feet which has a far far wider variety than the other 2 machines you mention. You can see the bigger brother of CB 4500 of the CB 3200 and CB 3500  in my other youtube vids. It has a longer arm and where the CB3200 can handle 1/2" the CB3500 and the CB 4500 can get you up to 7/8". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a83lCJe4JKo

 

[Wizcrafts]

@Dominicgetsgnar

The CB6900 Brian mentioned is called the CB1341 in the USA. It is sold and serviced by Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. You could call and ask about it to see if it is enough of an upgrade to justify the expense. Their number is: 866-362-7397.

There is a bottom feed heavy duty cylinder arm machine I was thinking about that sews 7/16 inch. But, the pressure of the foot holding down high density vinyl and canvas might cause the layers to shift. I think you need to stick with triple feed machines to keep the layers aligned. Therefore, the CB3200 is the minimum upgrade that can sew 1/2 inch with thread sizes 138 through 346. You should be able to order it with serrated teeth on the feed dog and the blanket foot set. There is even a flat table attachment listed in the accessories. You would want to order it with round point needles, not leather points. The best size for #138 thread is a #23. Go up one needle size for #207 thread, top and bottom. Here is a handy thread and needle guide to help you choose the best combinations and thread strengths.

 

[Dominicgetsgnar]

17 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I have to ask before I say too much, how much work of this type would you be putting through??? Is it for several hours in a day every day of the week? Is 3/8" the maximum you would ever need? This is a link to what over this side of the pond is called the Cowboy 6900 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tjjs5DPgJM

This machine will handle up to 1/2" thickness and for production work has a self oiling wick system which can be handy. It also has a knob up on top which allows you to raise the feet alternating height on the run if you get an extra thick bit, with a simple turn. Basically it is a copy of the Juki LS 1341. The feet use the very common Singer 111 feet which has a far far wider variety than the other 2 machines you mention. You can see the bigger brother of CB 4500 of the CB 3200 and CB 3500  in my other youtube vids. It has a longer arm and where the CB3200 can handle 1/2" the CB3500 and the CB 4500 can get you up to 7/8". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a83lCJe4JKo

 

Rock, thanks, I wasn’t aware that machine even existed. It seems to similar in capacities to the machine I’m currently using.
 

 I will be using the machine approximately 6 hrs per week, with the rest of the work being done on the flatbed seiko. At the moment I’m sewing 3/8” and over pretty regularly, every overlapping seam is around 3/8” and 90% of my binding work is at or over 3/8”. The webbing assemblies are especially tough to sew through even when they’re under 3/8”. 

15 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

@Dominicgetsgnar

The CB6900 Brian mentioned is called the CB1341 in the USA. It is sold and serviced by Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. You could call and ask about it to see if it is enough of an upgrade to justify the expense. Their number is: 866-362-7397.

There is a bottom feed heavy duty cylinder arm machine I was thinking about that sews 7/16 inch. But, the pressure of the foot holding down high density vinyl and canvas might cause the layers to shift. I think you need to stick with triple feed machines to keep the layers aligned. Therefore, the CB3200 is the minimum upgrade that can sew 1/2 inch with thread sizes 138 through 346. You should be able to order it with serrated teeth on the feed dog and the blanket foot set. There is even a flat table attachment listed in the accessories. You would want to order it with round point needles, not leather points. The best size for #138 thread is a #23. Go up one needle size for #207 thread, top and bottom. Here is a handy thread and needle guide to help you choose the best combinations and thread strengths.

 

Wiz, thank you, I was thinking along the same lines…. I don’t believe another 135x17 class machine will cut it, and if I’m going to be investing in a new machine I want to make absolute sure I’m not short changing myself to save a few hundred dollars. 
 

Triple feed is an absolute must. Many of the sailcloth’s have very low coefficients of friction, especially when layered on top of one another. Similarly to leather, upper and lower tensions must be high. These cloths are nothing like typical canvas, they’re resin impregnated resulting in very dense hard fabrics that require strong tensions to bury the knots. The puncture resistance of these textiles is also incredible, requiring the same high torque of moderately thick leather work.

The flatbed seiko I have now is equipped with a sewquite servo, which is fine for ~60% of the work. But bogs down when even another .5 mm is required. This will be fine because everything 1/4” and under is flat. The thicker stuff comes into play when the flat assembly’s are being stitched to one another, which sucks on a flat bed regardless of the available torque.

Plus having the ability to go up to 1/2” will greatly increase the versatility and ease of design for my current and future products. 
 

Not having a way to demo these machines has been the true dilemma in buying one thus far. So I greatly appreciate both of your feedback!

-dom

[Dominicgetsgnar]

Oh, forgot to ask…approx. how heavy is the cb3200 machine head?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Dominicgetsgnar said:

Oh, forgot to ask…approx. how heavy is the cb3200 machine head?

Heavier than I can lift! I'm guessing about 125 to 150 pounds for the head only.

The 3200 normally ships with a 20 x 48 inch U shaped table. There is a stand up pedestal option than takes much less floor space. Either is normally setup with an analog servo motor, with a 50mm pulley and a 3:1 speed reducer. You might want to order it with a 70mm motor pulley and a vbelt to match so you don't lose too much top speed.

[CowboyBob]

2 hours ago, Dominicgetsgnar said:

Oh, forgot to ask…approx. how heavy is the cb3200 machine head?

The CB3200 head weighs 95lbs.I'd much rather carry it than the CB4500 @ 140lbs.

[Dominicgetsgnar]

21 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Heavier than I can lift! I'm guessing about 125 to 150 pounds for the head only.

The 3200 normally ships with a 20 x 48 inch U shaped table. There is a stand up pedestal option than takes much less floor space. Either is normally setup with an analog servo motor, with a 50mm pulley and a 3:1 speed reducer. You might want to order it with a 70mm motor pulley and a vbelt to match so you don't lose too much top speed.

 

20 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

The CB3200 head weighs 95lbs.I'd much rather carry it than the CB4500 @ 140lbs.

Bob, Wiz thank you again!

Its definitely a manageable weight to get into my basement workshop. The pedestal table is a must, space wise. Plus I spend enough time sitting down at the flatbed. 

iv noticed the cb3200 only has two holes (right of needle plate) for attaching accessories (guides). Is there any kind of plate available for mounting a standard right angle binder (two threaded holes horizontally oriented)? Or will I have to make one?

Bob I will be in touch w you soon to discuss details and order one. 

[Dominicgetsgnar]

Finally pulled the trigger and ordered a 3200 yesterday from Toledo. Super excited, it’s gunna be a loooooong month, waiting for the delivery notice!

found out there is a freight/trucking delivery depot nearby my home so saved a few bucks by opting to pick it up from there myself.

Whomever I spoke with was super helpful, but I unfortunately didn’t catch his name. Between my fast talking and not the best cellphone reception, it slipped my mind.

Thank you to this forum and its members for the absolutely incredible wealth of knowledge on this site!

 

-Dominic

[CowboyBob]

13 hours ago, Dominicgetsgnar said:

Finally pulled the trigger and ordered a 3200 yesterday from Toledo. Super excited, it’s gunna be a loooooong month, waiting for the delivery notice!

found out there is a freight/trucking delivery depot nearby my home so saved a few bucks by opting to pick it up from there myself.

Whomever I spoke with was super helpful, but I unfortunately didn’t catch his name. Between my fast talking and not the best cellphone reception, it slipped my mind.

Thank you to this forum and its members for the absolutely incredible wealth of knowledge on this site!

 

-Dominic

Hello Dominic ,you spoke with Bob Kovar,Thanks for your order & we'll let you know when they pick it up.

[Dominicgetsgnar]

Just wanted to update this thread. 
 

iv had the machine for a few months now and I can’t express how awesome it is for my needs. 
 

it’s the slow season for my business, but I’m more than confidant this machine will pay for itself in a months time come winter. Plus it’s fun to sew with and has opened up my design capability by magnitudes. No longer will harp space and foot lift be holding me back and slowing production down. 
 

sews beautiful stitches through everything Iv put under the foot. With the addition of a the harness toes (cobra set, second hand from flea bay), the machine does small inside and outside corners with ease.  Sailcloth and heavy synthetic assemblies including webbing and sheet plastics (ldpe & hdpe) are a perfect medium for this amazing machine. 
 

binding work has also been an absolute pleasure to do. I fashioned a custom mount (repurposed server rack bracket) to get my binder where it needed to be, again using the double toe harness door in lieu of the blanket foot set. The results are spectacular and very much frustration free. 
 

everytime I go into my basement and see the cb3200 against the wall I crack a smile. The shear size of it alone next to my upholstery class machine provides great contrast. 
 

the delivery (picked it up at a freight depot) was smooth, quick and easy. 
 

can’t thank you guys enough for introducing me and many others to these great machines. Bob was also a pleasure to deal with and will have my business if I ever need to add another monster to the arsenal. 
 

this thing kicks major butt and drops the jaws of everyone that lays eyes on it. 
 

one more thing…anyone on the fence should just do it, you will not regret the purchase. The learning curve was essentially non existent aside from a few very small nuances…Toledos service + this forum + Ryan neels YouTube videos + cobra Steve’s tips and tricks= heavy duty sewing utopia for any end user. 

-thanks again Toledo bob, wizcrafts, and everyone else on the forum

Dominic 

On 5/20/2022 at 7:53 AM, CowboyBob said:

Hello Dominic ,you spoke with Bob Kovar,Thanks for your order & we'll let you know when they pick it up.

 

On 4/6/2022 at 2:18 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Heavier than I can lift! I'm guessing about 125 to 150 pounds for the head only.

The 3200 normally ships with a 20 x 48 inch U shaped table. There is a stand up pedestal option than takes much less floor space. Either is normally setup with an analog servo motor, with a 50mm pulley and a 3:1 speed reducer. You might want to order it with a 70mm motor pulley and a vbelt to match so you don't lose too much top speed.