cylinder arm machine - which is best for my needs

[Blanka]

Hello everyone

I graduated from a leather course where I've used the Durkopp Adler 669 cylinder arm machine. I am looking for a machine that can be comparable to that, but preferably cheaper. I'm making small leather handbags - it needs to have a cylinder arm. I would like to make belts and wallets as well. I would say I need something that sews through medium thickness, is simple and can sew slowly and precisely when needed. I am looking at the Consew Model 277R-3 and PFAFF 335 and Techsew 2600 Pro models at the moment, but I am also open to find a model that is used or just an old type, but not too sure which brands are the most reliable. 

Thanks for your help in advance 

Blanka from Montréal 

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Blanka said:

I am looking at the Consew Model 277R-3 and PFAFF 335 and Techsew 2600 Pro models at the moment, but I am also open to find a model that is used or just an old type, but not too sure which brands are the most reliable. 

Doing a quick spec search:

Consew 277R-3 Needle system is 135x17 or 16 with a max needle size is #23 and you have to move to either a 277rb-1 or 277rbfs-3 to get the large bobbin. The size #23 needle is good for V138 thread in light to medium material.

PFAFF335 Needle system is 134-35LR max needle size is #16 which is good for V69, low end of industrial size thread. Parts and accessories are expensive. Not a popular brand in Canada as compared to other brand names.

Techsew 2600 Needle system is135x17 or 16 max needle #23. The size #23 needle is good for V138 thread in light to medium material.

2 hours ago, Blanka said:

I would say I need something that sews through medium thickness, is simple and can sew slowly and precisely when needed.

Most machines these days can sew slowly right out of the box if they are equipped with a decent servo motor but can be further slowed down with a reducer pulley. If you want dependable, easy access to inexpensive parts and accessories, better resale value then cut to the chase and get either a used Juki LS-341, Juki LS-1341 or new Juki LS-1341.

Personally I think the Juki's are every bit as good as the Durkopp Adlers but with better access to more accessories and cheaper repairs at least in Canada. If the Juki's are out of your price range then a clone of the Juki LS-341 like the Kobe LS-1341 (out of Ontario) or Techsew 2750 (out of Quebec) are cheaper alternatives. The thing to remember is Juki rates their machines not by what size of thread you can stick through the needle but by what you can sew in both the needle and in the bobbin as well. The Juki LS-1341 is rated for a #25 needle which is good for V207 but the machine is only rated for V138 thread.

kgg

[Blanka]

14 hours ago, kgg said:

Doing a quick spec search:

Consew 277R-3 Needle system is 135x17 or 16 with a max needle size is #23 and you have to move to either a 277rb-1 or 277rbfs-3 to get the large bobbin. The size #23 needle is good for V138 thread in light to medium material.

PFAFF335 Needle system is 134-35LR max needle size is #16 which is good for V69, low end of industrial size thread. Parts and accessories are expensive. Not a popular brand in Canada as compared to other brand names.

Techsew 2600 Needle system is135x17 or 16 max needle #23. The size #23 needle is good for V138 thread in light to medium material.

Most machines these days can sew slowly right out of the box if they are equipped with a decent servo motor but can be further slowed down with a reducer pulley. If you want dependable, easy access to inexpensive parts and accessories, better resale value then cut to the chase and get either a used Juki LS-341, Juki LS-1341 or new Juki LS-1341.

Personally I think the Juki's are every bit as good as the Durkopp Adlers but with better access to more accessories and cheaper repairs at least in Canada. If the Juki's are out of your price range then a clone of the Juki LS-341 like the Kobe LS-1341 (out of Ontario) or Techsew 2750 (out of Quebec) are cheaper alternatives. The thing to remember is Juki rates their machines not by what size of thread you can stick through the needle but by what you can sew in both the needle and in the bobbin as well. The Juki LS-1341 is rated for a #25 needle which is good for V207 but the machine is only rated for V138 thread.

kgg

Thanks a lot kgg! I'll look into these  models you've mentioned! Have a nice day!  

[MtlBiker]

18 hours ago, Blanka said:

Hello everyone

I graduated from a leather course where I've used the Durkopp Adler 669 cylinder arm machine. I am looking for a machine that can be comparable to that, but preferably cheaper. I'm making small leather handbags - it needs to have a cylinder arm. I would like to make belts and wallets as well. I would say I need something that sews through medium thickness, is simple and can sew slowly and precisely when needed. I am looking at the Consew Model 277R-3 and PFAFF 335 and Techsew 2600 Pro models at the moment, but I am also open to find a model that is used or just an old type, but not too sure which brands are the most reliable. 

Thanks for your help in advance 

Blanka from Montréal 

Hi Blanka, and welcome to the forum!  Welcome from a fellow Montrealer!

I'm curious about the leather course you took.

Are you looking for a new or used machine?  I'd suggest that whatever machine you get, you make sure it has a servo motor (most new machines do) and it would be really helpful to also have a speed reducer.  And the other thing that's really nice is a NP (needle positioner) motor.  That can be turned off, but it lets you set the machine to always stop sewing with the needle down in the fabric or up.  I have all that on my Techsew 2750Pro and I am very happy with it.

If you're looking for new, I've bought two new machines (Consew 206RB-5 and Consew skiver) from Equipment Delisle on blvd. St. Laurent.  Stephen Delisle has been very helpful.  I think they sometimes have used machines also and from time to time they sell a demo at a really good price.  Worth checking them out.

Good luck!
 

 

[kgg]

19 hours ago, Blanka said:

I'm making small leather handbags - it needs to have a cylinder arm.

MtlBiker also makes some really nice bags and maybe able to help you choose a style of machine that he finds works best. He does have a cylinder bed , flatbed and a Sailrite portable walking foot.

kgg

[Blanka]

5 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

 

I'm curious about the leather course you took. 

 

 

Hey MtlBiker, at first thanks for your help and all the information above - I'll check out this model. Also, can I search up the bags you're making? I'm curious  

It was a bachelor program of 3 years where I've learned to create bags from the first sketches through models until the final product, all sewn and put together by hand  I would like to create small trunks like this one: 

[Blanka]

5 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

 

Are you looking for a new or used machine?  I'd suggest that whatever machine you get, you make sure it has a servo motor (most new machines do) and it would be really helpful to also have a speed reducer.  And the other thing that's really nice is a NP (needle positioner) motor.  That can be turned off, but it lets you set the machine to always stop sewing with the needle down in the fabric or up.  I have all that on my Techsew 2750Pro and I am very happy with it.

If you're looking for new, I've bought two new machines (Consew 206RB-5 and Consew skiver) from Equipment Delisle on blvd. St. Laurent.  Stephen Delisle has been very helpful.  I think they sometimes have used machines also and from time to time they sell a demo at a really good price.  Worth checking them out.

Good luck!
 

 

I would prefer to find something used - I can't really afford to buy a new machine unless it really is the best option, so I'm still searching, but  I have to make a decision eventually. I also have to consider if anything needs to be changed or fixed it would be easier to go through the process with a warranty, that makes me lean towards the new machines. I'll check that store out as well, thanks again for helping

Blanka 

[MtlBiker]

6 minutes ago, Blanka said:

Hey MtlBiker, at first thanks for your help and all the information above - I'll check out this model. Also, can I search up the bags you're making? I'm curious  

It was a bachelor program of 3 years where I've learned to create bags from the first sketches through models until the final product, all sewn and put together by hand  I would like to create small trunks like this one: 

That's a cool looking bag!  If you're thinking of tackling something like that, you're WAY more advanced than I am!  You've been studying this for over 3 years?  Well, I only started sewing (anything) during the first forced Covid isolation period here.  Before that I couldn't even sew a button on my shirt (and still have trouble with that).  I got hooked with sewing, first making masks, and then moving to pet leashes and harnesses, and then fabric bags and purses.  I only recently got more serious about working with leather and without the helpful folks here on this forum (and YouTube videos), I doubt I would have gotten very far.  But I am hooked, and now have two industrial machines, a half-industrial (Sailrite LSZ-1 portable walking foot) and still the home machine I started with.

From the photo of the bag you posted, I don't really see the advantage of a cylinder arm machine over a flatbed.  My most useful and favorite machine remains my flatbed Consew 206RB-5.  I'd say that gets 90% of my use and my cylinder machine only 10% if that.  So I think that if you're talking about your first serious machine, a flat bed would be best.  With unison/compound/triple feed.

I'm not selling my bags online.... I have a picture framing business and I display some of my bags there and I've been surprised that they sell.  Sewing is a hobby for me (maybe even becoming a passion) and it's not my way to make a living.  I do it for fun and to de-stress from my "real" business.  But here's a photo of the most recent bag I've made...

 

[Blanka]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:06 PM, MtlBiker said:

That's a cool looking bag!  If you're thinking of tackling something like that, you're WAY more advanced than I am!  You've been studying this for over 3 years?  Well, I only started sewing (anything) during the first forced Covid isolation period here.  Before that I couldn't even sew a button on my shirt (and still have trouble with that).  I got hooked with sewing, first making masks, and then moving to pet leashes and harnesses, and then fabric bags and purses.  I only recently got more serious about working with leather and without the helpful folks here on this forum (and YouTube videos), I doubt I would have gotten very far.  But I am hooked, and now have two industrial machines, a half-industrial (Sailrite LSZ-1 portable walking foot) and still the home machine I started with.

From the photo of the bag you posted, I don't really see the advantage of a cylinder arm machine over a flatbed.  My most useful and favorite machine remains my flatbed Consew 206RB-5.  I'd say that gets 90% of my use and my cylinder machine only 10% if that.  So I think that if you're talking about your first serious machine, a flat bed would be best.  With unison/compound/triple feed.

I'm not selling my bags online.... I have a picture framing business and I display some of my bags there and I've been surprised that they sell.  Sewing is a hobby for me (maybe even becoming a passion) and it's not my way to make a living.  I do it for fun and to de-stress from my "real" business.  But here's a photo of the most recent bag I've made...

 

Hey Mtlbiker this is so cool, you've gotten this far by yourself, congratulations! I think it can even be nicer to just have it as a hobby on the side - no pressure on selling them, just doing it for the passion of creating. 

The thing is, I would need the arm to sew parts I can only reach if I can put the bag on the arm. But thanks I'm considering getting a flatbed so it can work as a flatbed machine as well. I'm still trying to figure out which is the best choice - I've just found an old Pfaff 335 H3 model on marketplace, are you familiar with that model? It is way cheaper than every other option at the moment. 

Have a nice evening!

Blanka 

[dikman]

Most of the older 335's were set up as binders so the feed dog only moves back and forth, plus these machines also tend to have a slightly smaller capacity under the feet (8mm) and are happier with #69 thread. I did get mine to work with #138 but it took a bit of tweaking.

Personally, I wouldn't advise it as a first machine unless it's dirt cheap and you know you'll be getting a better machine as well, in that case it would make a useful addition to your shop.

[kgg]

5 hours ago, Blanka said:

I've just found an old Pfaff 335 H3 model

Definitely won't be my first choice but if you can get it on the cheap, in the $400 range, maybe. Changes are it doesn't have a servo motor so add about $200 to whatever the price is unless you are use to using a clutch motor.

What is your price range, what size of thread are you planning on using and most importantly how thick is the material you are going to sew?

kgg

[Blanka]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:06 PM, MtlBiker said:

That's a cool looking bag!  If you're thinking of tackling something like that, you're WAY more advanced than I am!  You've been studying this for over 3 years?  Well, I only started sewing (anything) during the first forced Covid isolation period here.  Before that I couldn't even sew a button on my shirt (and still have trouble with that).  I got hooked with sewing, first making masks, and then moving to pet leashes and harnesses, and then fabric bags and purses.  I only recently got more serious about working with leather and without the helpful folks here on this forum (and YouTube videos), I doubt I would have gotten very far.  But I am hooked, and now have two industrial machines, a half-industrial (Sailrite LSZ-1 portable walking foot) and still the home machine I started with.

From the photo of the bag you posted, I don't really see the advantage of a cylinder arm machine over a flatbed.  My most useful and favorite machine remains my flatbed Consew 206RB-5.  I'd say that gets 90% of my use and my cylinder machine only 10% if that.  So I think that if you're talking about your first serious machine, a flat bed would be best.  With unison/compound/triple feed.

I'm not selling my bags online.... I have a picture framing business and I display some of my bags there and I've been surprised that they sell.  Sewing is a hobby for me (maybe even becoming a passion) and it's not my way to make a living.  I do it for fun and to de-stress from my "real" business.  But here's a photo of the most recent bag I've made...

 

Hey Mtlbiker this is so cool, you've gotten this far by yourself, congratulations! I think it can even be nicer to just have it as a hobby on the side - no pressure on selling them, just doing it for the passion of creating. 

The thing is, I would need the arm to sew parts I can only reach if I can put the bag on the arm. But thanks I'm considering getting a flatbed so it can work as a flatbed machine as well. I'm still trying to figure out which is the best choice - I've just found an old Pfaff 335 H3 model on marketplace, are you familiar with that model? It is way cheaper than every other option at the moment. 

Have a nice evening!

Blanka 

[Blanka]

13 hours ago, kgg said:

Definitely won't be my first choice but if you can get it on the cheap, in the $400 range, maybe. Changes are it doesn't have a servo motor so add about $200 to whatever the price is unless you are use to using a clutch motor.

What is your price range, what size of thread are you planning on using and most importantly how thick is the material you are going to sew?

kgg

I would get it for a 1100$ and it has a clutch motor (that I've heard is stronger but always makes a noise in the back, which can be a problem because I would have it at home) and adjustable table that makes it a flatbed machine. My price range would have been around a 1000 but all the machines that I'm finding are on the range 2-3-4000$ at least. I would sew up to 3/4 thickness (20-25 mm) and the thread I usually use is 50/2 or 20. (this is another sizing system I guess, that we used in Europe, where the smaller the number the heavier the thread) 

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Blanka said:

I would get it for a 1100$ and it has a clutch motor (that I've heard is stronger but always makes a noise in the back, which can be a problem because I would have it at home) and adjustable table that makes it a flatbed machine.

That is way overpriced particularly since you will have to install a servo motor. Servo Motors are:

i) quiet,

ii) energy efficient using about 75 percentage less electricity

iii) gives way more precise sewing control.

2 hours ago, Blanka said:

I would sew up to 3/4 thickness (20-25 mm) and the thread I usually use is 50/2 or 20.

The PFAFF 335 will not sew:

i) 20 to 25mm thick anything fabric or leather

ii) you maybe able to tweak the machine like dickman to handle V138 (20) thread but not in that thickness.

To sew 20 to 25 mm (3/4" - 1") anything you are into heavy iron and 7x3 needles. I don't think you would be able to stuff that much material under the pressor foot on a PFAFF 335. Your needs / wants puts you in the 441 class of machines. These machines are going to be expensive Juki TSC 441 about 10K CAD, ADLER 869 about 10K CAD and the 441 clones that can sew up to 7/8" are about $6500 CAD. Another option maybe the one armed bandits like the Tippmann Boss or the Cowboy Outlaw or the Weaver Cub if you want to go un-motorized.

I would considered revamping the designs, invest maybe in a bell or blade skiver to reduce the thickness of the leather down otherwise invest in heavy iron.

kgg

 

 

[MtlBiker]

@Blanka - It looks like you haven't seen than I sent you a private message a day ago.  (As a new member it's possible you missed it.)

[dikman]

While I'm not across prices in Canada $1100 seems way too much for what is an old machine with a clutch motor! As I said earlier it is designed for 8mm (5/16") under the feet, I re-adjusted mine to 3/8" but it caused other issues. As kgg said you are looking at a harness stitcher type of machine if you want to sew 3/4".

[RockyAussie]

On 5/17/2022 at 6:38 AM, Blanka said:

Hello everyone

I graduated from a leather course where I've used the Durkopp Adler 669 cylinder arm machine. I am looking for a machine that can be comparable to that, but preferably cheaper. I'm making small leather handbags - it needs to have a cylinder arm. I would like to make belts and wallets as well. I would say I need something that sews through medium thickness, is simple and can sew slowly and precisely when needed. I am looking at the Consew Model 277R-3 and PFAFF 335 and Techsew 2600 Pro models at the moment, but I am also open to find a model that is used or just an old type, but not too sure which brands are the most reliable. 

Thanks for your help in advance 

Blanka from Montréal 

You will be hard pressed to find another more capable machine than the Adler 669 for what you have described for your needs. Even that machine will not go anywhere near

 

13 hours ago, Blanka said:

I would sew up to 3/4 thickness (20-25 mm) and the thread I usually use is 50/2 or 20.

I believe that the 669 would handle up to about 9 maybe 10mm tops. Other than that the Pfaff 335 has one BIG disadvantage in that they are mostly set up for binding operations and the needle from the end is about 9mm which is not ideal when trying to stitch in gussets etc. Also the old models come with a standard bobbin size about half that of M size bobbins.

This video shows me sewing the gussets in on a small handbag and in it the gussets do touch the edge of the cylinder as it stitches around. This is being done with a Cowboy CB 246 which has an up/down dog foot feed and the needle is about 6mm from the end.

This is a picture of it showing the needle distance and a new throat plate I am working on for stitching some bulky handles that you can see in the above video. In the video I have used a 69 Adler but I wanted the more positive feed the CB 246 can give. It works good and video is coming soon.

The CB 246 and the Techsew 2600 are pretty much the same but neither have the adjustment knob on top for raising the feet on the run like the Adler 669 does. Both machines would be probably half the price though and can have the feet adjusted from the back to lift higher if needed just not practical on the run. The Tecsew 4800 or the CB 6900 (In Australia or 1341 In the USA) do have that feature but are wider at the end. 51mm as against  76mm. These 2 following pictures were kindly supplied to me by Ron from Techsew I believe -

The distance of needle from the end on the last pic is about 7mm

This video is one I did awhile ago showing off the CB 6900

There are a few more showing this machine in use on my video channel if that helps

 

[shoepatcher]

I have a 669 DA.  Fabulous machine.  It will handle 9-10mm leather depending on how hard it is.   However, the biggest needle you can put in it is a #150.   I went to work on the bobbin basket and it will now handle up to a #180 needle.  DA in their infinite wisdom used the same hook off a DA 367.  Again, maximum #150 needle.  I have since altered another 669 hook for a friend of mine.  We both use #160 needles.  The #140 and #150 in my opinion is not the best for #138 thread since you get needle deflection with some of the things we sew.  Not anymore!!    Best machine in its class period.  However, not cheap.

glenn

[suzelle]

On 5/17/2022 at 2:06 PM, MtlBiker said:

I'm not selling my bags online.... I have a picture framing business and I display some of my bags there and I've been surprised that they sell.  Sewing is a hobby for me (maybe even becoming a passion) and it's not my way to make a living.  I do it for fun and to de-stress from my "real" business.  But here's a photo of the most recent bag I've made...

 

MtlBiker, very nice work!!!  Very worthy of a purchase, I'd buy one!!!

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by suzelle

[Dwight]

On 5/16/2022 at 4:38 PM, Blanka said:

Hello everyone

I graduated from a leather course where I've used the Durkopp Adler 669 cylinder arm machine. I am looking for a machine that can be comparable to that, but preferably cheaper. I'm making small leather handbags - it needs to have a cylinder arm. I would like to make belts and wallets as well. I would say I need something that sews through medium thickness, is simple and can sew slowly and precisely when needed. I am looking at the Consew Model 277R-3 and PFAFF 335 and Techsew 2600 Pro models at the moment, but I am also open to find a model that is used or just an old type, but not too sure which brands are the most reliable. 

Thanks for your help in advance 

Blanka from Montréal 

Blanka . . . just "sort of" across the border from you in Toledo Ohio . . .  https://www.tolindsewmach.com/parts.html . . . is "the" man for a Cowboy sewing machine.

The 3200 is about $2400 . . . the 4500 is about $3300 . . . the 32 will sew up to I think 1/2 inch . . . the 45 will go up to 3/4 inch.

I can attest to the 3/4 . . . as I went up to buy the 3200 and wound up with the 4500 . . . which I am absolutely satisfied with.  I do belts, holsters, sheaths, gun bags . . . and when the fancy strikes me up the side of the head . . . a wallet or purse.

Take a day . . . go see him . . . (call in advance) . . . he has a boat load of used machines . . . is easy to deal with . . . and will do you good.  You're basically 600 miles from him . . . so yeah . . . maybe 2 days . . . but I truly believe you will find the trip worth it.

Yeah . . . and you can tell him Dwight sent you . . . 

May God bless, Dwight

[MtlBiker]

@Dwight - Toledo is an awfully long drive from Montreal!  And crossing the border (especially on the way back) is still a fair hassle.  (My foreman has a cottage in Vermont and he went down last weekend, and according to him the border coming back, and the required "ArriveCan" docs, made it so much of a hassle that he says he wouldn't try again until he was sure the crossing would be easier.)  And as good as those Cowboy machines are, once you factor in DUTY and dollar exchange rate, they are a LOT of money.  Since the machines are not actually made in the US, duty will have to be paid coming into Canada, and with the exchange, they're really not that attractive to us Canadians.  And getting an industrial table and machine into most cars could also be a challenge.  Besides, I think Blanka has been looking for a used machine that she could get right here in Montreal.

If it wasn't for all that crap (especially the duty and exchange rate) I'd LOVE to have a Cowboy machine.  SIGH

(Hey @Blanka, if you are reading messages here, I sent you a private message on May 19th, which you haven't read yet.  Perhaps as a new member you didn't know where to look... Upper right hand corner.)

 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by MtlBiker
Spelling

[kgg]

48 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

@Dwight - Toledo is an awfully long drive from Montreal!  And crossing the border (especially on the way back) is still a fair hassle.  (My foreman has a cottage in Vermont and he went down last weekend, and according to him the border coming back, and the required "ArriveCan" docs, made it so much of a hassle that he says he wouldn't try again until he was sure the crossing would be easier.)  And as good as those Cowboy machines are, once you factor in DUTY and dollar exchange rate, they are a LOT of money.  Since the machines are not actually made in the US, duty will have to be paid coming into Canada, and with the exchange, they're really not that attractive to us Canadians. 

I agree. The clones from the US are really not viable options for Canadians largely due to the exchange rate and the fact there are dealers in Canada that import similar machines from China or Taiwan. I am not saying the clones brought into Canada are better or worst as that basically comes down to the ability of the individual dealers to source / spec / prep / service / support their machines.

The base price of the Cowboy 4500 is $2995 USD which is $3798.95 CAD. The minimum cost to get it across the border would be an additional 13 percent bringing the total to a minimum of $$4292.81. Since Blanca is in Montreal she would be better off buying the Techsew 5100 which can sew 7/8" locally from their office in Montreal for $4507.56 with all provincial / federal / duty taxes included. The other benefit for her would be local service, no shipping or travel etc. Another option in Quebec would be the Highlead GA2688-1 or if she wanted to travel she could find something similar in Ontario.

kgg

[MtlBiker]

3 minutes ago, kgg said:

I agree. The clones from the US are really not viable options for Canadians largely due to the exchange rate and the fact there are dealers in Canada that import similar machines from China or Taiwan. I am not saying the clones brought into Canada are better or worst as that basically comes down to the ability of the individual dealers to source / spec / prep / service / support their machines.

The base price of the Cowboy 4500 is $2995 USD which is $3798.95 CAD. The minimum cost to get it across the border would be an additional 13 percent bringing the total to a minimum of $$4292.81. Since Blanca is in Montreal she would be better off buying the Techsew 5100 which can sew 7/8" locally from their office in Montreal for $4507.56 with all provincial / federal / duty taxes included. The other benefit for her would be local service, no shipping or travel etc. Another option in Quebec would be the Highlead GA2688-1 or if she wanted to travel she could find something similar in Ontario.

kgg

Not only that...  If she picks up the Cowboy machine in the States, she would more than likely have to pay the State sales tax.  To avoid having to pay that, it would have to be shipped, resulting in more expense.  But don't overlook the duty issue... With "free trade" anything actually made in the US can be brought into Canada without any duty.  But if it was made elsewhere, duty would have to be paid.  So something people often overlook when comparing buying something here in Canada versus in the States and bringing it in, is that if it entered the US from another country, the importer had to pay some duty.  And then if it was brought into Canada, AGAIN duty would have to be paid.  Double whammy.  So for example, something made into Japan and brought directly into Canada with only one duty being paid, is often very competitive with something brought into the US, duty paid, and then duty again going into Canada.  Without even considering the cost and hassle of either driving to the US and bringing it into Canada or having it shipped.