Strong Belt Loop Attachment?

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

so now would you finish your demonstration and sew the two straps together and see how easy it is to tear them out. i think most all of us would love to know.

I don't see the point, those tests are extremely unrealistic to have any value in real life. I mean I don't know anyone who puts their leather item on a vice and starts pulling to see what happens, and if that person exists he can go buy his bag from someone else, not me LOL

I only got in the trouble before because a couple of people said rivets just come off, which is impossible without destroying the leather first.

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Yeah, but the test (for stitching and for the rivet) really should be putting the stress on the attachment the same way that it was on my belt pouch, when catching the pouch against something while wearing it.  Just hanging off the belt puts very little stress on the loop attachment.

Any suggestion on what kind of stitching should be done on the belt loop?  A box-x stitch?  Just plain box?  I don't think that a couple of lines of stitching perpendicular to the long side of the loop would be sufficient.  I'm thinking just a box would be good.

is that photo before or after the your rivets came off?  And which rivets came off, the top or the bottom ones?

To answer your question, if you have an area of great tension try to avoid stitching across, if you know what I mean?  Avoid having perforated lines across like toilet paper, try to make them along the edges instead. 

A "U" shape works well.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Spyros

[Tugadude]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:25 PM, RockyAussie said:

The top and bottom have to be open if the wearer prefers to wear it in line with the belt horizontally. They have to be open just enough for a belt to be pushed through. If worn vertically in the direction you have your strap attached then the 2 slits allow you to feed the belt through that way. In wear this method will not hang out as much as the folded over strap does at the top as in how you have yours at present. Yes it means 3 layers to be stitched and I would have thought that would not be a problem with your machine but as you say maybe you should just give it a go. Another view in case it helps - Ignore the crappy stitching, one of my staff asked me to make it up 1/2hour before his finish time and I did not even have a mould to start with.

 

 

Personally I love this solution.  With skiving, the edges don't have to be thick at all.  I would call it an elegant solution because it eliminates the need for any metal fasteners but maintains the strength you need.

[MtlBiker]

13 minutes ago, Spyros said:

is that photo before or after the your rivets came off?  And which rivets came off, the top or the bottom ones?

To answer your question, if you have an area of great tension try to avoid stitching across, if you know what I mean?  Avoid having perforated lines across like toilet paper, try to make them along the edges instead. 

A "U" shape works well.

That photo is after the top rivets (top part of the belt loop) came apart.  Thanks to you and others here, I now understand that the way I did this exposed the rivets to the wrong kind of stress.  Imagine trying to pry up the top part of the belt loop from the side.  That's what happened when the pouch on my belt kept catching on things in my workshop or even getting in and out of the car.  So I won't make toilet paper type of stitches but rather along the side.  Actually, a rectangular box of stitches to attach the loop to the pouch seems like it would be the best.  I do not want to go the route of feeding the top and bottom of the belt loop through slits in the pouch and then riveting them.  My little metal SECRID card holder would catch on the leather when I insert it.

 

[chuck123wapati]

27 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I don't see the point, those tests are extremely unrealistic to have any value in real life. I mean I don't know anyone who puts their leather item on a vice and starts pulling to see what happens, and if that person exists he can go buy his bag from someone else, not me LOL

I only got in the trouble before because a couple of people said rivets just come off, which is impossible without destroying the leather first.

"Extremely unrealistic" is pretty absolute don't you think? In real life people who steal purses and their victims test them often, daily in fact here in the states, as well so do people who people who catch them on door knobs getting out of vehicles etc. But i can tell you from experience the stitches do hold better no need for you to show anyone if you don't want to I just thought it would help those we are trying to help.

[Spyros]

2 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

That photo is after the top rivets (top part of the belt loop) came apart.   Thanks to you and others here, I now understand that the way I did this exposed the rivets to the wrong kind of stress.  Imagine trying to pry up the top part of the belt loop from the side.  That's what happened when the pouch on my belt kept catching on things in my workshop or even getting in and out of the car.  So I won't make toilet paper type of stitches but rather along the side.  Actually, a rectangular box of stitches to attach the loop to the pouch seems like it would be the best.  I do not want to go the route of feeding the top and bottom of the belt loop through slits in the pouch and then riveting them.  My little metal SECRID card holder would catch on the leather when I insert it.

I mean if that is a rivet that I'm seeing in that photo it looks like the stem is sheared clean off, but with the leather staying in absolute pristine condition like there was never any force applied to it.  I still have no idea how you managed to do that.

To be honest with you I'd still go with rivets for that application.  Generally speaking stitching is great because you have 20 bonds instead of two rivets, which shares the load more evenly, but the way you've done the loop you will either have the toilet paper effect if you stitch across, and if you don't it will have too much stress on the top stitches of a "U" or "X" pattern.  I guess you'll have to take your chances with the toilet paper, it'll probably be fine.

[Spyros]

1 minute ago, chuck123wapati said:

"Extremely unrealistic" is pretty absolute don't you think? In real life people who steal purses and their victims test them often, daily in fact here in the states, as well so do people who people who catch them on door knobs getting out of vehicles etc. But i can tell you from experience the stitches do hold better no need for you to show anyone if you don't want to I just thought it would help those we are trying to help.

I'm not designing bags for tug of war, not my gig sorry.   

[MtlBiker]

17 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I mean if that is a rivet that I'm seeing in that photo it looks like the stem is sheared clean off, but with the leather staying in absolute pristine condition like there was never any force applied to it.  I still have no idea how you managed to do that.

To be honest with you I'd still go with rivets for that application.  Generally speaking stitching is great because you have 20 bonds instead of two rivets, which shares the load more evenly, but the way you've done the loop you will either have the toilet paper effect if you stitch across, and if you don't it will have too much stress on the top stitches of a "U" or "X" pattern.  I guess you'll have to take your chances with the toilet paper, it'll probably be fine.

No, I'm not going to do the "toilet paper" type of stitching!  As far as I can see, there must be stitching along the sides AS WELL AS maybe a line or two of the toilet paper stitching. 

To try to better explain how I "managed to do that"... imagine wearing the pouch on your belt, really on your hip and not right in front or in the small of your back.  Now you walk by a table or something and the pouch itself snags on the item.  The belt loop doesn't hit anything but the way the pouch twists, it puts pressure on the rivets (the way I had them).  It's not the rivet shaft that gets the pressure but rather the head.  And after doing this often enough, eventually the rivet head popped open.  First one and then the other.

So for handling just the stresses of a normal belt loop, rivets the way I did them, are fine.  Or even toilet paper stitching would be fine.  But to handle the sideways pressure of the pouch twisting away when it catches on something, you need stitches parallel with the long side of the loop, just for maybe an inch at the top and also at the bottom.  That would give the strength to resist that sideways twisting.  I'm making a pouch this weekend (my weekend is always Sunday and Monday) and I have some leather drying in my mould waiting for me to get home.  I'm going to glue and stitch the loop.  (Or as they say here in Canada, "the loop, eh!".)

Cheers!
 

[chuck123wapati]

5 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I'm not designing bags for tug of war, not my gig sorry.   

Maybe you should tell those who buy your stuff that very thing I'm sure they would appreciate the fact that you don't give crap about the quality of your work. 

 If you want to be an ass in your comments who really cares why you make them sorry i put you out."I just thought it would help those we are trying to help." 

[MtlBiker]

9 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I'm not designing bags for tug of war, not my gig sorry.   

I think in my case, the way I wear the pouch and how the belt loop attaches to it, is a lot closer to a tug of war than it would be for any other kind of bag.

So far, in all my other uses of rivets, they have never failed me even once.  But you know what most often catches my belt pouch?  Getting out of my car.  The seat belt often catches on the front edge of the pouch as I get out, and I don't notice it until I get to the end of the seatbelt slack and then pow! it hits me.  That's something that really happens often. 

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

No, I'm not going to do the "toilet paper" type of stitching!  As far as I can see, there must be stitching along the sides AS WELL AS maybe a line or two of the toilet paper stitching. 

To try to better explain how I "managed to do that"... imagine wearing the pouch on your belt, really on your hip and not right in front or in the small of your back.  Now you walk by a table or something and the pouch itself snags on the item.  The belt loop doesn't hit anything but the way the pouch twists, it puts pressure on the rivets (the way I had them).  It's not the rivet shaft that gets the pressure but rather the head.  And after doing this often enough, eventually the rivet head popped open.  First one and then the other.

So for handling just the stresses of a normal belt loop, rivets the way I did them, are fine.  Or even toilet paper stitching would be fine.  But to handle the sideways pressure of the pouch twisting away when it catches on something, you need stitches parallel with the long side of the loop, just for maybe an inch at the top and also at the bottom.  That would give the strength to resist that sideways twisting.  I'm making a pouch this weekend (my weekend is always Sunday and Monday) and I have some leather drying in my mould waiting for me to get home.  I'm going to glue and stitch the loop.  (Or as they say here in Canada, "the loop, eh!".)

Cheers!
 

a couple stitches down the side then across the bottom, Most folks as previously said cut the loop with a rounded or belt shaped end and sew along the edge.

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

a couple stitches down the side then across the bottom, Most folks as previously said cut the loop with a rounded or belt shaped end and sew along the edge.

Chuck, is the reason for rounding the ends of the belt loop for looks, or something else?  I can't see that square ends or rounded would make any difference here.  First it won't be seen, and second, there's nothing that the end of the belt loop could catch on if it had square corners.  It was never the loop itself that was catching but the whole pouch.

[chuck123wapati]

4 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Chuck, is the reason for rounding the ends of the belt loop for looks, or something else?  I can't see that square ends or rounded would make any difference here.  First it won't be seen, and second, there's nothing that the end of the belt loop could catch on if it had square corners.  It was never the loop itself that was catching but the whole pouch.

 

On leather sewn to canvas  i know they use them to enlarge the sewing area and they also add a gusset on the back side to help with strength on leather to leather  just aesthetics mainly i guess there may be a logical reason or even the same reason as circumstance dictates. i use square ones quite often, actually more often than not lol sometimes even slanted ones. I figure the leather doesn't know the dif and here's why.

You use an awl to make slits in your leather instead of punching holes. Punching holes actually removes leather which weakens the seam and makes it like a postage stamp as everyone says. An awl removes no leather so no actual or minimal  strength is lost and that is why awls are used to sew leather. So basically IMO you can just about sew the end of a strap or loop in any direction or configuration if you use an awl and it wont effect the strength in any noticeable way. 

If you punch an 1/8th inch hole in a 1/2" strap to insert a rivet you have in essence made the breaking strength of your strap that of a 3/8" inch strap.

[tsunkasapa]

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

If you punch an 1/8th inch hole in a 1/2" strap to insert a rivet you have in essence made the breaking strength of your strap that of a 3/8" inch strap.

I may be wrong, but I think it would reduce it to 3/16", the width on either side of the hole.

[Bert03241]

This is how I sew my belt loops on, looks good and will never come apart if caught on something

[MtlBiker]

Just a little update...  Thanks to the kind advice and suggestions from you folks, for the last two little belt pouches I made, I didn't use rivets.  Instead, I hand stitched the belt loop in place.  I also changed the size of the loop and the position on the back.  By making the loop part a little smaller, the pouch doesn't move up and down on the smaller belts I tend to use and that way it stays more snug and less liable to catch on things.  I also moved the loop a little higher up on the back side which helps keep the pouch in a more comfortable position.  I've now been wearing these for over a week and they catch on things much less often and the belt loops seem to be super strong.  Thank you everyone for your great help.

 

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Just a little update...  Thanks to the kind advice and suggestions from you folks, for the last two little belt pouches I made, I didn't use rivets.  Instead, I hand stitched the belt loop in place.  I also changed the size of the loop and the position on the back.  By making the loop part a little smaller, the pouch doesn't move up and down on the smaller belts I tend to use and that way it stays more snug and less liable to catch on things.  I also moved the loop a little higher up on the back side which helps keep the pouch in a more comfortable position.  I've now been wearing these for over a week and they catch on things much less often and the belt loops seem to be super strong.  Thank you everyone for your great help.

 

[tsunkasapa]

Well done!

[Bert03241]

Great job looks much better and from your opinion works better too