Clone Patcher problems

[bigcreekleatherworks]

Howdy all, I’m new to leatherwork and very new to sewing machines. I recently bought a cobra/singer patcher clone from Amazon (INTBUYING Industrial Leather... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HRLS3B7?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share ) I got the thing all dialed in last week and sewed a belt with it. Seemed to work well and everything but when I got to the end it kept breaking thread. Thought maybe I over-tightened the top tension so I loosened it but it still keeps breaking. Now it seems that it’s missing the bobbin thread altogether. However when I don’t have material on the machine and I have the cover open I can watch the shuttle catch the thread but as soon as I slap some leather down it won’t. Can’t think of why it won’t work for the life of me and I can’t find any answers anywhere. Any help greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. 
 

Chase

[shoepatcher]

make a quick video of it sewing and post.

glenn

[kgg]

2 hours ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

Now it seems that it’s missing the bobbin thread altogether. However when I don’t have material on the machine and I have the cover open I can watch the shuttle catch the thread but as soon as I slap some leather down it won’t. Can’t think of why it won’t work for the life of me and I can’t find any answers anywhere.

I would try the simple things first.

1. Replace the needle with a brand name needle, 135  x 16 for leather and 135 x 17 for fabric in the appropriate size for your thread. A good reference chart for needle size to thread size can be found at https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

2. Make sure the needle is insert all the way in and with the grooves on the side of the needle are to your left. The needle needs to be inserted so the grooves are at the 9 o'clock position. Sometimes you may find in thick material you may have to have the needle twisted ever so slightly with the groove towards either to the 8:30 or the 9:30 o'clock position in thicker / tougher stuff near the max sewing thickness which is about 1/4". Also you will probably have to move up one needle size above the recommended size in thick material so the thread doesn't catch on the side of the hole and interfere with the top thread loop being correctly formed which will cause the hook to miss picking it up. 

3. Check to make sure the bobbin cover has the correct size hole aligned with the needle. There should be two hole sizes in the cover plate.

4. Check for any burrs in the needle holes of the bobbin cover plate.

What size of thread are you using with what size and type of needle? What is the thickness that you are trying to sew?

kgg

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by kgg

[Wizcrafts]

I read the product page and noticed that the customer rating is 2.2 out of 5. You aren't the only dissatisfied customer.

Low end patchers like this are notorious for having rough areas in critical places. Inspect every part that the thread passes through for sharp edges. This includes the paddle spring and needle mounting clamp on the needle bar. Also remove the hook and feel all around it for burrs.

You didn't describe the thread you are using. Is it a brand name thread? Or, did it ship with the machine (from China)? Is it bonded nylon or polyester? What size thread and what size needle are you using? Not all thread is created equal. Is your thread loose when you cut the end with thread snips?

[kgg]

 

6 hours ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

I recently bought a cobra/singer patcher clone from Amazon (INTBUYING Industrial Leather... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HRLS3B7?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share )

I looked at your link to the machine and I noticed a couple of things:

i) the description states this in it's description " Counting NO: 7MM, sewing system DP*17 16#-18#. " This I interrupt as:

     1) can sew a max thickness of 7mm (0.275", just a touch over 1/4")

     2) can handle needles from #16 to #18

     3) can handle V46 and V69 thread.

ii) the description lists it as a " 2972 Leather Sewing Machine " meaning it is a clone of the Singer 29K-72 patcher.

iii) the photo's of the top threading are incorrect and you should thread the machine as a Singer 29k-72. The pdf attachment will give you better instruction for your clone machine then you probably got with your machine.

kgg

 

29k71-2.pdf

[bigcreekleatherworks]

21 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

make a quick video of it sewing and post.

glenn

Tried to upload a video but it’s telling me the file is too large

[bigcreekleatherworks]

21 hours ago, kgg said:

I would try the simple things first.

1. Replace the needle with a brand name needle, 135  x 16 for leather and 135 x 17 for fabric in the appropriate size for your thread. A good reference chart for needle size to thread size can be found at https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

2. Make sure the needle is insert all the way in and with the grooves on the side of the needle are to your left. The needle needs to be inserted so the grooves are at the 9 o'clock position. Sometimes you may find in thick material you may have to have the needle twisted ever so slightly with the groove towards either to the 8:30 or the 9:30 o'clock position in thicker / tougher stuff near the max sewing thickness which is about 1/4". Also you will probably have to move up one needle size above the recommended size in thick material so the thread doesn't catch on the side of the hole and interfere with the top thread loop being correctly formed which will cause the hook to miss picking it up. 

3. Check to make sure the bobbin cover has the correct size hole aligned with the needle. There should be two hole sizes in the cover plate.

4. Check for any burrs in the needle holes of the bobbin cover plate.

What size of thread are you using with what size and type of needle? What is the thickness that you are trying to sew?

kgg

 

I’ll try switching needles maybe the 135x17 ones aren’t big enough. What is odd though is that it worked great for an entire belt then suddenly stopped working properly. I do have the needle all the in and clocked properly and I don’t see any sort of burs or debris around the shuttle case or anything but I’ll give everything another once over, thank you!

[bigcreekleatherworks]

18 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I read the product page and noticed that the customer rating is 2.2 out of 5. You aren't the only dissatisfied customer.

Low end patchers like this are notorious for having rough areas in critical places. Inspect every part that the thread passes through for sharp edges. This includes the paddle spring and needle mounting clamp on the needle bar. Also remove the hook and feel all around it for burrs.

You didn't describe the thread you are using. Is it a brand name thread? Or, did it ship with the machine (from China)? Is it bonded nylon or polyester? What size thread and what size needle are you using? Not all thread is created equal. Is your thread loose when you cut the end with thread snips?

I checked everything out and it all seems good, the thread in using is tortoise bonded nylon size 210D/3 and the needles I’m using are 135x17 the ones that came with the machine. If the needles or thread were the problem would it manifest randomly like this, where it worked fine then suddenly stoped? Thanks for your reply, appreciate any insight

[kgg]

48 minutes ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

I checked everything out and it all seems good, the thread in using is tortoise bonded nylon size 210D/3 and the needles I’m using are 135x17 the ones that came with the machine.

That really is a thin sewing thread and if my calculations are right it is a 3 ply bonded nylon in the range of Tex 23. which would make it a domestic sewing thread size. If they supplied the correct needle for that size of thread the thread is probably breaking rather then fraying as it would only rated to handle a couple of pounds of stress. I would suggest that you get a leather needle 135 x 16 in size 18 and some industrial V69 thread from a place like Wawak.com (https://www.wawak.com/sewing/needles/industrial-machine/schmetz-leather-industrial-machine-needles-135x16-tri-dpx16-d-10pack/#sku=smnl135118 ) and ( https://www.wawak.com/thread/thread-by-use/top-stitch/amann-strongbond-nylon-bonded-thread-tex-70/#sku=atdp1237 ). The needles that came with your machine are for fabric and more then likely of poor / cheapest quality made just to show you it can sew.

How thick is the leather you are trying to sew?

You also maybe getting needle deflection if the material is to thick.

kgg 

 

[bigcreekleatherworks]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

That really is a thin sewing thread and if my calculations are right it is a 3 ply bonded nylon in the range of Tex 23. which would make it a domestic sewing thread size. If they supplied the correct needle for that size of thread the thread is probably breaking rather then fraying as it would only rated to handle a couple of pounds of stress. I would suggest that you get a leather needle 135 x 16 in size 18 and some industrial V69 thread from a place like Wawak.com (https://www.wawak.com/sewing/needles/industrial-machine/schmetz-leather-industrial-machine-needles-135x16-tri-dpx16-d-10pack/#sku=smnl135118 ) and ( https://www.wawak.com/thread/thread-by-use/top-stitch/amann-strongbond-nylon-bonded-thread-tex-70/#sku=atdp1237 ). The needles that came with your machine are for fabric and more then likely of poor / cheapest quality made just to show you it can sew.

How thick is the leather you are trying to sew?

You also maybe getting needle deflection if the material is to thick.

kgg 

 

You’re probably very correct these needles are the cheapest possible and definitely need to replace them! I’ll give the ones you recommended a shot! I did do some more tweaking and cleaning and I seem to have it running again, however it is dripping a stitch here and there at random I’ll do some more adjusting and see where that leads, thanks again for all the insight it really helps I’m way out of my element here haha 

[kgg]

12 minutes ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

I seem to have it running again, however it is dripping a stitch here and there at random I’ll do some more adjusting

I think we all have had problems in the beginning with one or another machine. If possible a few pictures of your top thread path from the thread spool to the tip of the needle may help in spotting something that may need to be tweaked.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

10 hours ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

Tried to upload a video but it’s telling me the file is too large

You can create a YouTube channel for free and upload videos to it. The channel can be public or private. If private, only people you send a link to can find your videos. They have very generous file size allowances.

[Garyak]

On 12/7/2022 at 12:37 PM, bigcreekleatherworks said:

Howdy all, I’m new to leatherwork and very new to sewing machines. I recently bought a cobra/singer patcher clone from Amazon (INTBUYING Industrial Leather... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HRLS3B7?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share ) I got the thing all dialed in last week and sewed a belt with it. Seemed to work well and everything but when I got to the end it kept breaking thread. Thought maybe I over-tightened the top tension so I loosened it but it still keeps breaking. Now it seems that it’s missing the bobbin thread altogether. However when I don’t have material on the machine and I have the cover open I can watch the shuttle catch the thread but as soon as I slap some leather down it won’t. Can’t think of why it won’t work for the life of me and I can’t find any answers anywhere. Any help greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. 
 

Chase

Your needle is not seated correctly, either not all the way in, or not east to west looking at from the operator position. Scarf faces the hook (east). Make sure it’s as squared up facing that way as possible. 

[bigcreekleatherworks]

Howdy all, just wanted to pop in and update. I did get the machine to run well for a moment. I believe the needles and the thread I was using were the culprit. Big thanks to @kgg I got those needles and thread you recommended and they work great. Bad news is I broke the set screw off in the needle bar clamp so I couldn’t change needles right away. Then I tried to tap the screw out with a drill and I messed that all up, finally ordered a replacement needle bar clamp and when that came the thing was not running smoothly. Turns out I had bent the needle bar in all my drilling/attempting to remove the needle bar(was hammering the wrong side of the pin lol). Got a new needle bar. Got the machine running again and everything seems fine. Thanks to everyone who commented for their input, a lot of useful information for the future for sure. 
 

I am curious about another thing with these patchers: what’s the largest size thread/needles it will take? I’m only curious because the thread I got looks rather small on some of the pieces I’ve sewn. If I could run a thicker thread I think it would improve the aesthetics of the pieces I plan on making in the future. Anyway, thanks again all, have a great night/day. 
 

Chase

[kgg]

6 hours ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

I am curious about another thing with these patchers: what’s the largest size thread/needles it will take? I’m only curious because the thread I got looks rather small on some of the pieces I’ve sewn. If I could run a thicker thread I think it would improve the aesthetics of the pieces I plan on making in the future. Anyway, thanks again all, have a great night/day. 

The seller of the machine in your Amazon link says it can handle size #16 to #18 needles. This means it could handle V69 (max thread size for most domestic sewing machines) and maybe V92 (smallest thread size for most industrial sewing machines) depending on the thickness and how tough or sticky the material is. Can it handle larger size thread like a Singer 29K 72, I don't know....

If it was a true clone of the Singer 29K 72 it would be able to handle needles from size #9 to #25 needles. This means it could handle threads up to about V138.

These machines were designed to do small, short run repairs on items hence the name patcher.

A good chart for selecting the correct needle size for the thread size can be found at: ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html )

kgg

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, bigcreekleatherworks said:

Howdy all, just wanted to pop in and update. I did get the machine to run well for a moment. I believe the needles and the thread I was using were the culprit. Big thanks to @kgg I got those needles and thread you recommended and they work great. Bad news is I broke the set screw off in the needle bar clamp so I couldn’t change needles right away. Then I tried to tap the screw out with a drill and I messed that all up, finally ordered a replacement needle bar clamp and when that came the thing was not running smoothly. Turns out I had bent the needle bar in all my drilling/attempting to remove the needle bar(was hammering the wrong side of the pin lol). Got a new needle bar. Got the machine running again and everything seems fine. Thanks to everyone who commented for their input, a lot of useful information for the future for sure. 
 

I am curious about another thing with these patchers: what’s the largest size thread/needles it will take? I’m only curious because the thread I got looks rather small on some of the pieces I’ve sewn. If I could run a thicker thread I think it would improve the aesthetics of the pieces I plan on making in the future. Anyway, thanks again all, have a great night/day. 
 

Chase

A test piece i did the other day, with the tex90 and Schmetz 18 leather needle.  it is 2 pieces total 1/4" thick each pass is about 5" long so about 30" of continuous stitching without a hiccup.  I feel i could easily run this machine till the bobbin ran dry.  I can sew up to about 3/8"th reliably so far with this combo.

[CowboyBob]

Just saw this,glad to see you got it figured out.Just thought I'd mention if you ever break the needlebar screw you can almost always get them out by clamping some vice-grips on the needle stub twist it alittle as you pull down & remove it.Then with the pressure of it the screw will back out by using the point of a needle.

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

A test piece i did the other day, with the tex90 and Schmetz 18 leather needle.  it is 2 pieces total 1/4" thick each pass is about 5" long so about 30" of continuous stitching without a hiccup.  I feel i could easily run this machine till the bobbin ran dry.  I can sew up to about 3/8"th reliably so far with this combo.

oops sorry i have the other Chinese shoe patcher machine i went back and looked at your op. soooooo, nevermind! lol

[Garyak]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

oops sorry i have the other Chinese shoe patcher machine i went back and looked at your op. soooooo, nevermind! lol

Switch to 17 system needles. 23 will fit the needle throat. 207/207 23. Using the HX needles was a big negative. 

[bigcreekleatherworks]

14 hours ago, kgg said:

The seller of the machine in your Amazon link says it can handle size #16 to #18 needles. This means it could handle V69 (max thread size for most domestic sewing machines) and maybe V92 (smallest thread size for most industrial sewing machines) depending on the thickness and how tough or sticky the material is. Can it handle larger size thread like a Singer 29K 72, I don't know....

If it was a true clone of the Singer 29K 72 it would be able to handle needles from size #9 to #25 needles. This means it could handle threads up to about V138.

These machines were designed to do small, short run repairs on items hence the name patcher.

A good chart for selecting the correct needle size for the thread size can be found at: ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html )

kgg

Well I’m gonna give some size 22s a shot and see if I can run a stitch with v138 otherwise I’ll just accept it for what it is, thanks again for the advice I appreciate all the knowledge I can get!

[Saltysteele]

I use 138 thread in mine with 22 needles.   I'll try to attach a screenshot of the needles i use.   They don't have a flat, side where they mount,  but i position carefully and works great.  Had to adjust the needle height, but that's about it. 

[Saltysteele]

[Constabulary]

 

The "coarse needle plate" allows needles up to #23. I usually do not go over #22 with my Singer 29K71.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/82234-needle-plate-medium-coarse-singer-29k-71.html

Keep in mind that it is a repair machine and not really a machine for the serious production of leather goods!

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Constabulary

[bigcreekleatherworks]

Howdy all, I know it’s been quite a while since I started this thread but I’m back for some more advice. I’ve been using #22 needles with tex135 thread bonded nylon with little to no problems for some time now. I’ve sewn belts, radio straps, rifle slings etc. the other day I switched to a tex135 bonded polyester and I was getting a ton of loops on the bottom of the material. Checked bobbin tension and adjusted top tension and no change. I’ve tried adjusting the top tension all the way in both directions and no change. Adjusted bobbin tension to the point that I just took the leaf spring off the shuttle to see if that would work and nothing. Switched back to the nylon thread and I’m having the same problem. What do they say about the definition of insanity? Anyway, any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated 

[GerryR]

If the loops are top thread loops, then I believe it is caused by the takeup lever, whether timing or not being threaded properly.  Just a guess but I have had similar problems on regular sewing machines.