Been asked to make simple knife sheaths. Please help..

[SUP]

It seems leatherwork is in demand, at least where I stay. Each and every time I mention that I work with leather, I am always asked whether I can make something or the other. Purses, moccasins, and now, knife sheaths. 

Someone wants me to make dozens of knife sheaths. He has 105 knives and some have sheaths, but most do not. I explained that I am just a hobbyist and  that I just make simple, protective knife sheaths for personal use but he insists I make some. and he is fine with simple ones, without any tooling. Now my question is, if I agree, how much do I charge for them? They will be hand-stitched as I do not have a machine and I size and wet mold each so it fits exactly. The knives are of different sizes, he says. 

I would really appreciate some guidance on this.

[Dwight]

Well . . . I do have two machines . . . so there would be none of that hand sewing I used to do.

As a rule . . . I use an old formula from back in construction electrician days.  I basically price out the material . . . including scrap . . . dye . . . thinner . . . and multiply that by 3.

One third of course is "parts" and two thirds is labor.

This does not always work out for me . . . and would probably do less for you having to hand stitch them all.  But it is a "starting point".

If you lived close enough to "drive over" . . .  I'd offer you the use of either machine I have . . . or I'd offer to sew them for you for say 5 bucks apiece.  My cowboy 4500 makes short work of knife sheaths.  More time messing with starting and stopping and trimming than actually sewing.

Best wishes on your endeavor my friend.

May God bless,

Dwight

[kgg]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

He has 105 knives and some have sheaths, but most do not.

I would figure out

i) an average cost for materials like leather, dye, thread, etc including wastage

ii) an average time to complete a knife sheath from cutting the leather to the finished sheath

iii) a fair hourly rate you want to charge

iv) a profit margin

Just as an example would be $10 for materials plus $15 hourly labor rate (say 1 hour to just to keep it simple for the math) plus say 40 percent for profit for a total: $25 for labor / materials plus $25 x0.40 = $35 per sheath. The only two areas you can really save on the cost per sheath is the labor cost which could be reduced using equipment and the profit margin.

kgg

[SUP]

Thank you for that kgg. That helps!

I agree machines will help but I am a hobbyist and have no plans to go into business and therefore have had no plans to buy machines as I enjoy hand stitching. However ,I seem to be getting pushed that way. In the last month or so, this man is the 2nd who asked me to make knife sheaths and another wants moccasins for him and his family. Another woman wants me to make bags for her. 

Maybe the universe is trying to tell me something!

I am a little loathe to turn a hobby into a profession though - worried that leatherwork will lose its charm. But let me see. I will think over it for a few days.

[Handstitched]

18 minutes ago, SUP said:

I am a little loathe to turn a hobby into a profession though - worried that leatherwork will lose its charm. But let me see. I will think over it for a few days.

As someone that turned a hobby into a business, it hasn't lost  its charm, not for me.  . I still very much enjoy making something beautiful out of leather. I still get to make my little pet projects, but I do admit that they can take a little longer sometimes  due to filling orders. But I am good a delegating what comes first and still get to work on my own projects. I both  machine stitch and hand stitch. 

Buying a sewing machine doesn't necessarily   mean you're going into business , you can buy a machine simply  to help augment your hobby.  

HS

[SUP]

@Handstitched that is very true. I could buy a machine and start a business and still enjoy leatherwork - I think I will - but I am so new at leatherwork - just started earlier this year -  that I do not yet feel confident. I need to feel that I am getting good at at least some things first.

That is my concern.

 

 

[Klara]

The thing is, if you are starting a business, you will also need to think about nasty things like taxes, insurance, overhead, advertising... I strongly suggest to keep leatherwork as a hobby for as long as possible. 

 

 

[Handstitched]

@SUP  You can  sell stuff without becoming a business and still maintain your hobby   My Mother did it for years.  She used to spin wool, knitted home spun garments and sold some, she did ( and taught)  pottery   and sold some, and even decorated cakes for a while .  I sold heaps of stuff at markets etc. long before I became a business and long before I got a machine.

But the moment you have a business name &  registration, thats when those nasty things like taxes etc  come in , like @Klara  said.   ( and I hate paper work)  Thats  a discussion in another thread. 

 And ,  if  you decide to buy a machine, the next big questions is....which one ?? 

OMG,  what a dilemma !!!  how many times have we all  asked that on here ? Thats also a  discussion for another thread. 

HS

 

[jrdunn]

5 hours ago, Klara said:

The thing is, if you are starting a business, you will also need to think about nasty things like taxes, insurance, overhead, advertising... I strongly suggest to keep leatherwork as a hobby for as long as possible. 

 

 

These are definitely concerns.  For me, I also have a "mind set" problem.  It seems to change from "I get to do leather work" to "I have to do leather work".  Another might be deadlines.  As far as machines go, I'm no expert but I'm not sure you would gain much machine stitching knife sheaths over hand stitching.  I do have a couple machines and enjoy using them though.  As always, JM2C.  Jim

[kgg]

6 hours ago, SUP said:

Maybe the universe is trying to tell me something!

If you enjoy hand stitching you still can do that it for your own or special projects but when doing large quantity projects mechanizing the work process is the way to go. To me it's like hand sawing versus using a circular saw, one piece of 2x4 no big deal but a 100 I'll use the circular saw. Doing those sheaths all by hand will I bet quickly lose the enjoyment of doing that many similar items. How mechanized you want or can afford will be the question. Just adding a proper sewing machine will as @Dwight mentioned from however long it takes to hand stitch to about five minutes for sewing as will as reducing the hand and mental fatigue.

kgg

[SUP]

@Klara and @Handstitched, I know! it is such a dilemma. I could sell items directly without making it a formal business but these days they are very strict here in the US, I have heard. 

So if I do decide to do it as a business, it will have to be all the complications of  business registration etc. UGH!

@jrdunn, you are right about the deadlines and pressure to complete orders versus doing leatherwork for the pleasure of it. I would hate to lose the joy I get from working with leather. 

And like you said, @Handstitched, buying a machine! I have seen the threads here about buying a machine There are so many things to think about, and since I am such a novice at leatherwork, I am clueless about all of them. I barely even machine-stitch cloth, so that will be a learning curve as well. I have 2 sewing machines, including a vintage one , just sitting pretty as of now! So I wonder if I will use a leather sewing one or it will become another expensive 'curio' in my house. And I hate to spend money unless absolutely necessary. 

SO much to think about. Thank you for giving me so much food for thought. I need it all to make an informed decision. 

 

 

[SUP]

@KGG, yes, that makes sense. Hand stitching so many sheaths is just not practical.

Leather sewing machines are expensive and it does not make  sense to me to buy a machine for just this project - it will certainly not cover the cost of one.  I do not know whether I will get other projects or will even want them. So I have to decide whether buying a machine will help me in newer projects and allow me to make more items that I would not attempt to hand sew, even just for a hobby.

 

[AlZilla]

26 minutes ago, SUP said:

t does not make  sense to me to buy a machine for just this project - it will certainly not cover the cost of one.

 

105 sheaths x 20.00 profit per = $2100. More than the cost of a Cowboy Outlaw or  CB2500.

If you never do another for-profit order, you've propelled your hobby leaps and bounds forward.

I'd be on that deal in a heartbeat.

[Handstitched]

@SUP Its a lot to think about I know, but  remember, YOU are in charge  and whatever you decide, you have our support 

Empowering isn't it ??   and it feels damn good too 

HS 

[SUP]

@Alzilla, You are perfectly right,  if I get $20 profit from each sheath. I somehow am not sure. My husband just told me  he was  talking to my husband about simple sheaths for $10!! People have no idea of the expense and efforts put into hand made leather items! 

if he agrees to a price where I can make a decent profit, I will probably do it. Otherwise, not worth it.

@Handstitched, Yes! It is empowering and feels good. I should see the positive side of it!

[AlZilla]

18 minutes ago, SUP said:

My husband just told me  he was  talking to my husband about simple sheaths for $10!!

Yep, mass produced junk is the enemy of handcrafted quality.  We live in a Walmart world.

I hope you get the deal.

[SUP]

@Handstitched, your mother sounds delightfully talented! Spinning wool, knitting, making garments, pottery, baking.. so many talents. I am impressed. You must be proud of her.

[SUP]

@AlZilla, yes, unfortunately. Don't people notice the different in quality?

If he insists on such a ridiculous price, I am directing him to the cheap items he can get off Etsy or eBay or Temu or wherever. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by SUP

[fredk]

Be careful. I recently dropped a deal for cowboy holsters. The retailer want top quality holsters at a lower price he can buy poor thin leather ones from Mexico. The deal was for at least 5 holsters per month for at least 3 years. I can't even buy the decent leather for less than he is buying a cheap holster in at (eg, my good thick leather is about £5 sqft x 3 = £15 plus lining leather at £3.50 sqft = about £26, he's buying the cheap holster and a belt for £25). The retailer keeps asking when I'm going to make him some holsters and I keep telling him he can't afford my prices. He's been asking since 2017!

Sometimes, after looking at a deal, ya just gotta walk away from it

Hand sewing can take more time than you think. I recently sewed the perimeter of a book cover. It took 3, that's three, bluddy hours. At £10.85 (minimum wage here) that's £32.55 just to sew the edge! As this is for a friend, I'd told her £15 for the book cover. That just covers the cost of the leather (real cheap, but good, leather ) and a few fittings

Also, a while back, as I was asked to do so, I used a stop watch to time every working step in making a simple coin purse. Actual working time came out at 1 hour 45 minutes, and I didn't have to dye or edge finish or anything fancy. So that was, at min/wg, £19 for something I'd sell for £3 or £5

I might do the stop-watch thing again sometime, just to see how long it takes me to make something

 

[AlZilla]

Out of curiosity, I trolled $10 knife sheaths on Amazon. I found what we'd all expect, cheap, thin "leather", no welts, complaints of poking a sharp knife through the sheath. One reviewer measured his "leather" at .040", so about 2oz.

But look!  4 stars out of 5!

How does Amazon Math work when 45% of reviews are 4 stars and under, 29% are 3 stars and under, yet somehow average out to 4 stars?

[SUP]

@fredk, that is a good idea - using a stop watch to time a process. I am still getting into the groove of it, so probably am slower too.

And I am worried about agreeing to do something at a lower price than the price of the leather. When he gets back to me, let me see what he says. Since I have no idea what type of knives they are, I am not going to give a price until I see them. Through this thread, I have some idea of how to price, so if he does not agree to it, I will pass.  

@Alzilla, that is astonishing! I see the reviews but never thought of  checking the percentages and their calculations. They say newer, good reviews get more weightage. So if a seller has 25 bad reviews, and can get 5 friends to give good reviews, the score remains high. It should be like credit scores - bad ones remain for 7 years. That would stop bad sellers in their tracks.

 Many of the reviews, if you read them carefully, are for other items in the sellers shop. They put all the reviews together for all the items if they have good reviews for one item, so it looks like every item has great reviews. They also allow reviews from people who received items free in return for reviews - very suspect. 

Now this is another thing to watch out for. 

Life was simpler when I could just go to a neighbourhood store to get what I need. Did not need to check ratings then. it was either good, or bad. 

 

 

 

 

[fredk]

off track, but in the UK Amazon have been caught falsifying feedback ratings and they are now under attack to put it right. In some cases, which are known as the 'Mystery Scarf', Amazon sellers have sent out cheap scarves to unsuspecting 'buyers' on Amazon, then the seller enters a 100% or 5 star rating on behalf of the 'buyer' in order to boost their reputation. When the 'buyer' contacts Amazon about the scarf they are told it was sent to them in error and for them to just keep it

Its commonly done by sellers in @Doc Reaper 's favourite country,  Ch . . . . . 

[Dwight]

Well . . . I do have two machines . . .one is a Tippmmann Boss . . . and a Cowboy 4500.  Thousand bucks for the Boss . . . around 3500 for the Cowboy

The Boss will some day go on the auction block . . . and they will be getting a good machine.

I've had a few squabbles with it . . . but it always worked out . . . could not tell you the belts, holsters, and other stuff it has made in the 20+ years I've had it.  I did just enough hand sewing to know I was not doing that for any length of time.

And as far as starting a business . . . there is no big deal on that . . . at least in Ohio.  I can make and sell 199 items per year . . . and the only one thing I have to handle is defining the  "profit" made from the 199 items and including it on my  long form federal income tax.  And that is handled for a hundred bucks using Turbotax.  

More than 199 items . . . I have to have a vendor's license . . . collect sales tax . . . file a tax report twice a year . . . but even that is no big deal.  

Now if you get big enough for employees . . . that's a whole "nother ball game.

May God bless,

Dwight

[SUP]

@Fredk, why am I not surprised? Come to think of it, I did once receive a pair of socks I did not order and that is the answer I received from Amazon!  Not happened again. I guess there are more than sufficient people the world over to not have to repeat us in the con.

Thank you @Dwight. I did not know that. I will have to check how it is here in Georgia.  About machines, my husband  thinks I should investigate getting one, not for a business but for ease of making the things I want - I have arthritis so he worries my hands will ache. My investigations take  a couple of months at least, before I finally decide. In this thread itself, I have got some ideas and brand names, including the ones you mentioned above. I will check the prices on eBay and Facebook Marketplace and new as well. Let's see. The fun is in the investigation as well.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by SUP

[billybopp]

As for Amazon reviews, I never did trust the numbers other than a starting point for more review - even if the calculations are correct!   Read the actual reviews with a critical eye.  Some sellers have indeed been caught pumping up their own reviews at times, but even ordinary reviews can be very revealing.  I try to look at both positive and negative feedback. Different folks have different definitions of what a good/bad item is too!!

Some made up examples like those I've seen:

"Received this item fifteen minutes ago, a whole day earlier than I expected!  Five stars" ... Tells you NOTHING about the item itself.  

"I plugged it in and the lights came on.  Five stars."  ... Yeah, but does it work?  Does it do what it's supposed to?  Who knows!

"I've been using this for over a month and it does everything it should do and is very nice looking.  Five stars."  ... Now that's a decent review that is worth one in the plus column.

"I just got this thing and the shade of green is two shades different from what the picture showed.  One star."  ... Who in their right mind buys a thing looking for a very specific color using internet pictures?  And how is it otherwise??

"UPS lost my package.  One Star." .... Seriously???   I've seen it!!

- Bill