W. Rose round knife - sharpened by machine.

[SUP]

Last week, my husband bought me a good rose knife. Online. It was not sharpened in the photographs. The well-meaning but clueless seller sharpened it by machine before sending it to me. Can see the sharpening marks which are different from those when sharpened by hand.

Will the knife have been irreversibly damaged? Can I do anything to rescue it?

I get my kitchen knives sharpened by a gentleman who does that, at a local flea market. He insists sharpening knives on that electric circular stone, I do not know what it is called, will not damage the temper. From what I read everywhere else, it does. My kitchen knives are ordinary ones and easily replaceable. My leather knives, not so much.

 

[chuck123wapati]

15 minutes ago, SUP said:

Last week, my husband bought me a good rose knife. Online. It was not sharpened in the photographs. The well-meaning but clueless seller sharpened it by machine before sending it to me. Can see the sharpening marks which are different from those when sharpened by hand.

Will the knife have been irreversibly damaged? Can I do anything to rescue it?

I get my kitchen knives sharpened by a gentleman who does that, at a local flea market. He insists sharpening knives on that electric circular stone, I do not know what it is called, will not damage the temper. From what I read everywhere else, it does. My kitchen knives are ordinary ones and easily replaceable. My leather knives, not so much.

 

it doesn't necessarily mean its ruined because it was sharpened by machine, almost all knives are done by machine when made. I sharpen mine out to 1000 grit on a machine. If it was done wrong however and heated beyond about 400 degrees then it could have lost its temper but  you would see discoloration in the metal of any number of colors. Is it uniformly sharp ? And does it hold an edge?

Usually if a person over heats a blade they burn off the very tip as its the thinnest and most delicate. Are the tips on your knife still nice and sharp? 

Last thing you can easily just hand sharpen it your own way if it hasn't lost its temper. 

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati, that is good to hear. The edge is not discolored or different colors. It looks no different from when I sharpen my other knives by hand, only very uniform all around. It is sharp and cuts okay. The seller had said it needed further sharpening. So it appears he just sharpened it a bit, not sufficient to do any lasting damage.

Yes I will sharpen it by hand. I believe, from reading other threads here, that Rose knives are very hard steel and take longer to sharpen but I have no issue with that. It will be worth it.

Thank you for putting my mind at rest.

[doubleh]

If the metal doesn't have a yellow to blue tint you are probably OK. If it does the temper is compromised from a little to completely gone if it is blue. .

[SUP]

@doubleh luckily, the color has not changed at all. So it seems fine. That is a relief!

If the temper is compromised on a knife, can it maybe be ground out until a section with the temper undamaged is reached? Is it possible? Would be very difficult to do, though.

[dikman]

If only the edge has been overheated then yes, you could possibly take it back to better metal BUT it would require careful grinding, so as not to overheat it further, and it could require quite a bit of metal removal. In your case it sounds like some work on an oilstone/water stone should be all it needs.

[SUP]

Yes. I think so too.

[chuck123wapati]

14 hours ago, SUP said:

@doubleh luckily, the color has not changed at all. So it seems fine. That is a relief!

If the temper is compromised on a knife, can it maybe be ground out until a section with the temper undamaged is reached? Is it possible? Would be very difficult to do, though.

yes and no usually if a knife is over heated it is just in a spot or two not the whole blade so sometimes you can grind a new edge on it  correctly without re-tempering the whole blade. Sometimes not so easy depends on the amount of damage. I find most of the time the damaged knives are usually ground down to much with a really rough type grinding wheel and both the edge and blade are damaged.

[SUP]

Oh. Then it is a good thing my knife is not damaged anywhere. I examined it minutely under a magnifying glass.

[doubleh]

Glad to hear it's Ok. A knife or other tempered tool can be saved by grinding away past the color. If using power tools you do have to be careful and not get in a hurry or you will just make it worse. Go slow and cool a lot. I do it bare handed to feel how hot the metal is getting. Something most people today forget about is this can be done with hand tools. A sharp file will cut most knife steel and there is no danger of overheating. file to shape, then sharpen, and you are good to go.

[chuck123wapati]

6 hours ago, SUP said:

Oh. Then it is a good thing my knife is not damaged anywhere. I examined it minutely under a magnifying glass.

please don't use or attempt to use a file or a machine on your blade you don't need either for a new pristine blade.  A decent set of water stones are the easiest and some of the best to use also learn to keep them flat as they wear down, yes stones need maintenance too. Then there are other options to finish polishing the edge after the stones. A strop with rouge or 1000 + grit sandpaper for example. I will also say you don't need anything for now on your blade except a steel , a strop or 1000+ grit sandpaper until the edge gets ruined.

[SUP]

@doubleh  luckily since my knife does not seem to be damaged, I think I will not need  a file or machine. But I will remember, if I ever end up with a damaged blade. I save all the information I collect here in a word document for reference. Very helpful. Besides, I do not want to use a machine or file on my knives. I haven't used and don't have either, so no experience either. 

@chuck123wapati I don't plan to use a file or machine on my blade. I have a set of water stones and will use that. The set came with a piece to flatten the stones as they wear down, so that is covered.

I made a strop with an old leather belt stuck to thick cardboard onto which I rubbed green rouge thickly. 

I anyway strop my knives on it before and after use each time - learnt that from this site.

You mention "you don't need anything for now on your blade except a steel , a strop or.." What steel would that be?

Edited June 13, 2023 by SUP

[chuck123wapati]

9 minutes ago, SUP said:

@doubleh  luckily since my knife does not seem to be damaged, I think I will not need  a file or machine. But I will remember, if I ever end up with a damaged blade. I save all the information I collect here in a word document for reference. Very helpful. Besides, I do not want to use a machine or file on my knives. I haven't used and don't have either, so no experience either. 

@chuck123wapati I don't plan to use a file or machine on my blade. I have a set of water stones and will use that. The set came with a piece to flatten the stones as they wear down, so that is covered.

I made a strop with an old leather belt stuck to thick cardboard onto which I rubbed green rouge thickly. 

I anyway strop my knives on it before and after use each time - learnt that from this site.

You mention "you don't need anything for now on your blade except a steel , a strop or.." What steel would that be?

a butchers steel works well.  i also use 1500 grit sandpaper which i spray glue to my granite stone in an out of the way place so i can keep all my cutting tools honed up as  i work.

[SUP]

I'm sorry. I know I sound dumb, but when do I use the steel? Each time before and after use like the strop?

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

I'm sorry. I know I sound dumb, but when do I use the steel? Each time before and after use like the strop?

yup you can use either or both  they basically do the same thing , keep your sharp edge sharp.

[SUP]

Okay. Thank you.

[bruce johnson]

   I'm not sure how many Rose knives have been through my shop - but quite a few. I've got pictures of 34 different ones and there were more that pictures were lost. I am attaching a picture of one of my favorites that I did here. First off, these really are not like many other round knives with the exception of some Huber and English or Joseph English knives I have done. The steel in these was small batch crucible steel and hand carboned. If you have not worked with a Rose knife before get in the right frame of mind - these knives can frustrate you every step of the way.

    This is among the hardest steel I've seen in knives. The old guy who taught me a bunch said a Rose knife is harder than a whore's heart and will get sharper than a mother-in-law's  tongue. True enough. Old men are generally wise. It is prone to pitting, and prone to cracks. Check it closely with magnification as you progress for cracks that may reveal as you work it. One in five of mine end up in the garbage on inspection. 

    Rose knives tend to  be a bit thicker than many other knives. Fact is that as a short cut, a lot of times the previous users did not take the shoulders of the bevel back as they sharpened the edge. They just raised the angle. A lot of the time the current edge is now too steep. That shoulder should be taken down some for a lower angle bevel. I shoot for about a 1" bevel back from the edge at least before I think about an edge. How much of the pits and grind marks behind that you choose to take out is up to you. I use a light convexing on the final edge. 

   If you choose to use stones - have at it but realize if that knife is good then you will be there a while. I tried a couple English and Rose knives on stones. What would have taken a good HF Osborne, Gomph, or Newark CS Osborne knife down with a bit of time will make a little scuff on a Rose. First time I saw that I was floored. I did one to completion on stones - a little time spent here and there so I would not know exactly how many hours I had into it. I'm guessing double digit hours over about 6 months time. You will be reworking and flattening your stones a bunch. 

   I have changed how I sharpen a lot of things over time. Now for knives I use almost entirely mechanical stuff -  knife grinder through the grits, then wheels with aggressive compounds through finer compounds. I can usually do most knife refurbishments in about an hour, Roses are a few to several hours depending on  condition. On most Roses I am usually going through at least 6 grits on belts, then 5 grits of greaseless compounds, followed by 3 colors of buffing compounds. Granted my knife grinder and bench ginder-buffers are all variable speed and I  slow them down to avoid heat build up and not dip as often. The finer the grit the slower the speed or lighter the touch to avoid overheating. Barehanded to feel for heat as mentioned above. Wide open 3450 RPM bench buffer and you can kill one pretty fast. 

    I've mentioned in articles and interviews that I think most people stop sharpening too soon. They get to a serviceable decent edge where if they spent five minutes more refining that edge they'd have a sharper edge. On a Rose, make that 5 minutes at least a half hour. When I am done and have a fine cutting edge on one there are not many accomplishments I like more.  Are they worth the effort - yes I think so. Stand on the top step of the podium and play the anthem!

    The good ones like a Rose will hold an edge quite a while, but not forever. Stropping - you can clean the blade edge with green compound. If you want to dress an edge that is starting to sound off or drag, then black compound is my choice. Like everything so far, It is going to take more strokes on a strop than most other knives.

    Quick little story to finish this. Keith Pommer from Worthing SD was a great leather tool and machinery guy. Maybe 12 years ago I visited him and he offered me a really pretty  Rose knife. He said I probably wouldn't believe him but he had 6 hours in that knife. I had no doubt, but a lot of people who didn't know would have questioned it. I had a couple Roses at home I was using already and passed, told him he ought to keep it as nice as it was. Several more visits and every time that knife was still on that same work bench. Eventually they auctioned the shop out but kept his personal tools out while he was still alive. He passed away later and his daughter offered the tools for sale last year in one lump deal. I flew back, bought them, and packed to ship home. There were a few touchstones but one of the highlights was finding that Rose knife in the bunch.  I was not expecting it to be there and said a few happy bad words.  It It is one of my prizes now.   

     

[SUP]

@bruce johnsonThank you for that detailed guidance.

When I received the Rose knife, I knew I was in for a lot of work. Last night, I sharpened another, unbranded knife.. It got sharp fast, within a short time. I do not have machines but I do go through the different grits or whatever they are called, on the water stones. On the unbranded knife, it took me about 15 minutes and it is very sharp now. 

Did twice the time on the Rose knife, remembering that in this site, people always said what you have confirmed, that Rose knives have some of the hardest metal and are difficult to get sharp. My knife just yawned and went back to sleep. Reading what you have explained above, I realize I am in for a long series of long sessions of sharpening.

Since I do not have an electric grinder or a belt system, it will all be by hand. I will work on it, through the weeks and months. I will reach there one day.

I will check with the magnification; I did it once to check for damage and it is without cracks as of now. I will continue to check, at each sharpening session.

The knife already has a wide bevel. it is not 1 inch but it is a small knife. So I think a 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch should do? I will remember to keep the bevel that wide before I sharpen the edge. 

I have a set of rouges, including the black one. Not needed them for the other knives but will break them out for the Rose.

I will apply them onto a set of strops. Old leather belts on Cardboard - keep them ready for whenever I need it.

As usual, a printout of all these details and information so that I remember at the right time.

And I can understand the pleasure of finding good knives unexpectedly.  Last week, at a flea market, I found an old Bissonnette beveler, for a dollar.  Sharpened it, following Stohlman's instructions in his book. A pleasure to use now. Somehow, I find myself using such finds more than I use new instruments.

Found a Henckel round knife yesterday as well. The seller did not have much idea of the value, but it looks clean and with very little tarnish or rust. Well cared for. Will follow same instructions for sharpening that one too.

Stopping looking at knives now though, else I spend more time making sheaths and sharpening knives than in doing other leatherwork!

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by SUP

[dikman]

Knives that are that hard often tend to be brittle as well (there is always a trade-off somewhere) and can chip easily if dropped onto a hard surface. I wonder what the Rockwell hardness of the blade is? Any ideas, Bruce?

[bruce johnson]

5 hours ago, dikman said:

Knives that are that hard often tend to be brittle as well (there is always a trade-off somewhere) and can chip easily if dropped onto a hard surface. I wonder what the Rockwell hardness of the blade is? Any ideas, Bruce?

I don't have a way to test the hardness but sharing my experience comparing several different makers. Yes the Roses are brittle and yes they will likely chip or crack if you drop one on concrete. Same with Joseph English, Huber and English, Harrington, and some of the other early and mid 1800s makers.  Keith Pommer and I shared the conversation once. I brought up that I saw more cracks in Rose knives than other makers and he figured that was a fair assessment. Obviously the steel is brittle. The worker bee in the harness factory drops one and it cracks. It was not worth the time and effort to grind one back with a short crack and salvage the knife for these guys. They were workers paid by the production not paid by the hour to spend half a day sharpening their own tools. Brittle steel and easier for the worker to replace than repair. They tossed it in a box and bought another. It rusts over and the crack isn't visible. A hundred years later somebody finds it, Bruce Johnson gets excited and buys it. Once the rust is gone, the crack is evident.

   Once I traded up from entry level round knives I favored the Shapleigh or Clyde knives. They were fairly easy to sharpen, held a decent edge, and good for learning what worked and what didn't for edge geometry and sharpening techniques. If you screwed one up, it didn't take a a couple hours to fix. My joke was that I'd drop or knock off a knife and you could watch it turn 180 to land on concrete floor edge first. It would bounce on that edge three times in three different places before falling over, leaving three places to fix. Once I installed stall mats on the floor, I found the mats carried a repellent force field that prevented knives from ever falling in the first place. I don't think any hit the floor again and if they had would not have been a problem. 

[Wepster]

just a small observation, a steel is used to straighten an edge. They tend to be kitchen tools, you get a chefs knife very sharp, the cutting board (or cutting along bone, hitting bone can chip a knife) can roll the fine edge over. The steel will straighten that edge back in line with the rest of the blade. Stropping can also straighten an edge, but generally you are removing metal, tiny, tiny bits, which is why it is used on a sharp knife before it gets dull. It will polish an edge, allowing the tool to slide through with less friction/drag.

 

[SUP]

@dikman, @bruce johnson, @Wepster Thank you for all the information. 

From my experience last evening, I must say a small old, unbranded knife that was thrown in with some other things is my sharpest. it is easiest to sharpen and keeps sharp, is light and very comfortable to hold! Can't be too hard, as it is easy to sharpen, more like an old C S Osbourne.  I plan to follow the same care as for the old, branded ones.

 

 

 

[dikman]

It's pretty easy to make a carbon steel blade hard, just quench it and don't temper it. In general, very hard blades are not practical as while they will hold an edge for a long time the difficulty in putting that edge back once it's blunt can be a problem for many people. One reason butcher's liked Victorinox butcher knives, plain carbon steel that was easy for them to keep sharp. Same with chefs.

It would be an interesting experiment to try tempering one of those W Rose knives, or re-heat, quench and temper to see what effect it has. Not going to happen, of course, as anyone who has one is unlikely to want to try it.