Swapping clutch motor to servo motor, please assist

[Ana1234]

Hi, 

I'd love some suggestions for a servo motor. Preferably from a distrubotor based in Europe EU to avoid import taxes and high shipping costs. 

I bought a machine online from my neighbourhood but have no idea what brand it is. It could be a copy of a Highlead GC0618 (that's what the UK distrubotor said) or it is in fact that original machine. 

Would love to achieve a really slow speed and also have the control of making a one stitch at the time. 

From reading a lot of posts I get that the speed depends on the person installing it. I'll be getting help with that but still would like as much info as possible to learn and to make sure I get the best result possible. 

Thanks! 

 

 

[chrisash]

The price difference between the 550 watt  and 750 watt servos is so small you may as well buy the more powerful version , but the 550 is still fine for that grade of machine shown

Its simple to fit yourself and any of the middle price are all much the same

To get 1 stitch at a time per second you really need to also buy a speed reducer on a ratio of 3 to 1 and again easy to fit yourself

In the UK Amazon always has a large number of servo motors or companies like https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/ have a wide assortment of all makes of sewing machine parts

[kgg]

6 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

From reading a lot of posts I get that the speed depends on the person installing it.

Not really, the sewing speed is going to depend the motor controller (analog vs electronic), whether it is coupled with a speed reducer and of course the operator. If you purchase a electronic controlled motor it is mainly going to depend on how many coils the motor was constructed with where the more coils gives better speed control and torque. A lot of the cheaper electronic controlled servo's have 6 coils while the better ones have 12 coils which is usually reflected in the cost also some of the cheaper ones have a minimum start speed so they maybe a be jerky. If you want / need that stitch by stitch ability you really need to invest in a speed reducer like @chrisash suggested.

For the machine in the photo's a 550 watt will work just fine but if the cost difference between a 550 and 750 watt is minimal and like @chrisash suggested get the 750 watt. 

From the looks of the machine in the photo it doesn't look like a Highlead GC0618 even through it has a tag that says GC0618. The whole from end is closer to that of a Juki DU 1181N rather then the Highlead GC0618. Base on the tension assembly I would consider the one in the photo to be a lighter duty machine with lesser sewing needle size availability, thickness capabilities thread size selection and probably a walking foot rather then a compound feed where the needle just moves up and down with no front to rear movement.

What are you planning on sewing and with what size of needle and thread?

kgg

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by kgg

[dikman]

Servo motors are a straight swap, they use the same locating bolt holes as the existing motor. You'll most likely need a different length belt. Mount the control box underneath the table (that's the usual location), connect the linkage to the foot pedal and plug in the cables. Then just adjust the parameters in the control box to suit your needs. You could try it as is first and if it's not slow enough then fit a speed reducer, but personally I would just fit one right from the start, particularly if you're going to sew leather (I have some sort of reducer on each of my machines).

It might seem a bit daunting at first but fitting a servo isn't rocket science.

[Ana1234]

Chrisash thanks for the post, appreciate it! Lovely part of the world you are based, I was living in London for many years and yes, you can pretty much find anything you need in the UK. Also photography wise!  Now though as you know, taxes and shipping costs are a problem...  Can you recommend a speed reducer? Please see the motor I was offered below..

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Kgg, ok I'll go for a 750 watt. And thanks for the suggestion on model of machine, been pulling my hair out not having a manual and being new to industrials. Must say I had a steep learning curve, screwing apart this machine and learning about mechanics  Something I was never interested in before... I guess I am not a fan of this stuff but I DO WISH to achieve that perfect stitch so learning is a must. Grateful for forums like this and the support given. I am using a 19 needle with the M20 thread (not sure what this relates to in TEX)? I have a slightly smaller needle for the M40 thread. I am sewing faux leather accessories and bags and there are many layers at times. My machine has been getting through it all well but I am struggling with the speed, that's all. It has a walking foot yes. Please see the motor I was offered below..

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dikman, yes it is daunting!  Not my cup of tea. Thanks for the information. Can you recommend a speed reducer? Please see the motor I was offered below..

---

I was sent this option by an Italian distributor. Does anyone know anything about thos servo? Is it a good option for me? Comments from the company below, Chinese to me!! They say it is 350 EUR. For the motor I get is this price OK?  - 

https://www.cowboysew.com/extra-heavy-duty-sewing-machine-servo-motor.htm

 

It is brushless, 8Nm torque, with needle positioning for easy use, silence and low power.

You need to add the synchronizer to the wheel so the motor can work with 2 needle position, up and down.

 

------

 

I can see that this brand has been discussed by some of you already.... Have you heard anything new about it?

[dikman]

I don't recall reading anything more about it since the other posting was made. It seems a bit expensive to me for what it is, but I'm not familiar with ebay pricing of servo motors in Europe. The vast majority of servo motors on ebay are pretty generic, with the main difference usually being the control panel and how to use it. Any of the generic servos, whether 550w or 750w, should be more than adequate for your machine. Some of our European members may be able to offer advice on what to buy/where to buy and speed reducers over there.

Exactly where are you? It's a good idea to put your location under your name as it helps people provide more localised information.

[Ana1234]

It was from a distributor in Italy but I think so yes, I should be able to get something cheaper. I'm based in Slovenia. 

[kgg]

9 minutes ago, Ana1234 said:

I am using a 19 needle with the M20 thread (not sure what this relates to in TEX)? I have a slightly smaller needle for the M40 thread.

Here is a good reference chart for needle size to thread size.  https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

Note sometimes you have to move up a needle size in thick / tough / sticky material. The M20 thread size is equal to V138 (Tex 135).

14 minutes ago, Ana1234 said:

I am sewing faux leather accessories and bags and there are many layers at times.

I would recommend using at least a #22 needle and if you find you are having stitch problems particularly in the multi layers you may have to move up a size or two. If the hole that needle makes isn't large enough the loop that the hook needs to catch will not be properly formed material so you get skipped stitches or stitches that are not constant. Depending on the faux leather you may have to use a leather needle to cut through rather then a fabric needle that punches through and separates the fibers of the material. I am going to assume you are using the 135 x 17 (DP17) needle system for fabric so a leather needle would be 135 x 16 (DP16).

On 6/29/2023 at 5:11 AM, Ana1234 said:

I bought a machine online from my neighbourhood but have no idea what brand it is.

I would ask your neighbor if they know what brand the machine is or if they have still have the manual

35 minutes ago, Ana1234 said:

I can see that this brand has been discussed by some of you already.... Have you heard anything new about it?

I would have like to see more coils but 9 coils is a good middle of the road servo motor. As for installing this style of servo motor, brushless, getting the synchronizer to work with a speed reduced is probably not going to work. In a lot of cases you can get either i) really slow sewing speeds with stitch by stitch ability and extra torque for punching power by using a speed reducer

OR

ii) slower sewing speed with less torque and needle synchronizing for the needle up or down positioning. 

I am going to assume your machine has very similar sewing abilities as my Juki DU 1181n which is a light weight walking foot and the only reason I would consider adding a speed reducer is to get better low speed control. My rough rule of thumb is adding a speed reducer for more slow speed, stitch by stitch, control is a good idea but, but to add a speed reducer just to get more punching power, no. I figure I'm using the wrong class of machine for the work and something is going to twist or break under full load and torque. As far as the needle positioning it is a I think a personal preference based on the what works best for them, some people love it and others not so much.

1 hour ago, Ana1234 said:

They say it is 350 EUR.

The cost to me seems really steep. 350 EUR would be ~ $500 CAD or $380 USD.

kgg

[Ana1234]

kgg, yes that's correct needle wise. I did invest in some leather needles (DP16) but was told that they will tear the microfabric that I am using in between the faux leather. I ordered some ballpoint needles after that and they stitch nicely. But I will give the leather needles a go now to see what they do to the lining... 

 

I asked for the brand and manual when I bought it of course, she don't have it. I think she also bought it second hand and wasn't able to dive into the technical aspects of it all but I am determined to make it work. And I believe I need to fully know how the machine works in order to be able to adjust things myself in the long run. Otherwise it gets expensive. 

 

Did a search on the needle synchronizing. Maybe this is a stupid question but wouldn't I be able to just go with the first option 'really slow sewing speeds with stitch by stitch ability and extra torque for punching power by using a speed reducer'. And then just using the handwheel to place the needle down at a corner for pivoting? If I have a lot of control then surely, with time, I will know how to work the pedal in order to stop the needle where I want it? If it will sew very slowly? or I just use the handwheel? Isn't it more important to have the slow speed and stitch by stitch and the power, then having needle synchronizing?

So from this conversation I might just need a speed reducer??

Saying that though the noise is a factor too..... it would be really nice to get rid of the noise. Then a servo would be better I guess.

Appreciate the support! 

[kgg]

4 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

I think she also bought it second hand and wasn't able to dive into the technical aspects of it all but I am determined to make it work. And I believe I need to fully know how the machine works in order to be able to adjust things myself in the long run. Otherwise it gets expensive. 

I would download manual for the Highlead GC0618. I have included the three for the Juki DU-1181n and see which manual seems to be the one for your machine.

4 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

Maybe this is a stupid question but wouldn't I be able to just go with the first option 'really slow sewing speeds with stitch by stitch ability and extra torque for punching power by using a speed reducer'.

No such thing as a stupid question. Maybe it's just me but I don't really see the need of installing a needle positioner on any of my machines for my needs. My new machine that will arrive shortly is coming with a brushless servo motor and needle positioner. The needle positioner will not be installed and will remain in the box. A speed reducer will then be installed as I would rather have better stitch by stitch control. Beside that for my stuff I don't like the idea of the machine telling me where the needle is supposed to be when I release the go pedal, that would just frustrate me to no end. At present I use brush servo motors on all my machines and only time will tell if I keep the brushless servo installed on the new machine. The more electronics the greater the potential for more problems.

5 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

Saying that though the noise is a factor too..... it would be really nice to get rid of the noise. Then a servo would be better I guess.

The difference between a clutch motor and either a brush or brushless servo motor is like night and day. The servo motors only run when give hit the go pedal where as the clutch motors roar to life the moment you turn the power switch on. The clutch motors are inherently noisy while the servo motors are almost silent.

kgg

Juki_1181n_instruction_7K.pdf DU-1181 eng manual.pdf Juki 1181N parts.pdf

[dikman]

I'm with kgg regarding the needle positioner, I'm not a fan. I primarily sew leather and prefer a slow speed, with a speed reducer I can easily control where the needle stops. I bought a positioner with one of my servos because it seemed like a good idea, but I just didn't like it, plus it won't work with my servos once a speed reducer is installed.

Having said that some people love them. And yes, there's no reason you can't handwheel around corners, tight spots etc.

Regarding the (high) price for this servo, the advertising is promoting it as designed for the larger heavy duty machines, which they obviously think allows a premium price, but the reality is that performance-wise it probably won't be any better than many of the generic servos for your needs. At Australian $576 would I buy one? Nope.

[AlZilla]

47 minutes ago, dikman said:

I'm with kgg regarding the needle positioner, I'm not a fan. I primarily sew leather and prefer a slow speed, with a speed reducer I can easily control where the needle stops.

For what it's worth, I have 2 machines with servos and speed reducers. I can land the needle anywhere I want, in any position. Never tried a positioner but I think I like it to stop where I stop it.

[Ana1234]

Thanks all. Will any reducer go with my machine or does it have to be a specific one?

I will shop around for another servo and also speed reducer, any support on the reducer is welcome! 

 

[dikman]

There are basically two designs of speed reducer available, a box type that bolts in place of the motor and the motor is then bolted to the bottom of the reducer, all you need extra is probably a couple of belts, and the type with a large and small pulley stack that is mounted on a support arm. This is screwed underneath the table  and in line with the pulleys/handwheel. I don't know what is available in Europe. Quite a few on here have made their own using pulleys, axles and pillow block bearings. Lots of info on here if you want to spend the time searching.

If you type in sewing machine speed reducer into google you'll be overwhelmed with information! I also found a stacked pulley type on Aliexpress that was considerably cheaper than what they're selling for here (which wouldn't be hard, Australia is not a cheap place to buy things!!).

I forgot, youtube is a good source of information on how to install/setup these sorts of things too.

Edited July 1, 2023 by dikman

[Ana1234]

Yes I did google it!!!! 

I'll spend some time reading and will probably be back here in a few days 

[Ana1234]

This looks interesting and it would be a lot cheaper - 

 

 

[kgg]

49 minutes ago, Ana1234 said:

This looks interesting and it would be a lot cheaper - 

Yes this is another way to reduce speed. This method does have it limitations as you can only reduce the motor pulley so much and it will be dependent on the minimum bending radius of the pulley you are using. A lot of servo motors come with a 75 mm pulley on them. If I'm not mistake the pulley part of your hand-wheel wheel on your sewing machine is about 85 mm.

With the servo motors speed set to 100 rpm's.

1) The speed of the hand-wheel will be approximately 88 rpm

2) Reduce the motors pulley-wheel down to 45 mm the end result with the speed of the hand-wheel will be approximately 53 rpm

Another alternative is to install a larger hand-wheel say a 150mm.

i) If you increase the existing hand-wheel pulley size from 85 mm to  150 mm without changing the motor pulley (75mm) the speed of the hand-wheel will be reduced to  50 rpm.

ii) If you increase the existing hand-wheel to 150 mm and reduce the motor pulley to 45 mm the speed of the hand-wheel will be reduced to  30 rpm.

kgg

 

 

[AlZilla]

Reading back through here, it seems like you want very precise control of your stitches, as did I for leather work.

I was in your rabbit hole not so long ago. Went to the servo with a small pulley. I wanted more reduction so I added this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164574739671

I understand you're not in the US, but you should be able to find one like it. This is a 3:1 reducer - a 6" pulley to a 2".  My handwheel pulley is about 3.5" and I counted 26 stitches in 30 seconds. My servo bottoms out at 200 RPMS, even though it's advertised as 0 - 5000.

All this is on a Singer 111w153, so along the lines of what you're looking at.

Has anyone mentioned https://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng ?  Now, there's a rabbit hole.

Honestly, just do both at the same time. You have to remove the machine head and flip the table up twice if you do one and then the other.

[kgg]

2 hours ago, AlZilla said:

I wanted more reduction so I added this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164574739671

Just add to where you can get a speed reducer try this ad from shipping Aliexpress with free shipping at least in Canada for $132 CAD or $95 USD: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000197134740.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.ae3c56a6cHtxUt&algo_pvid=a20d7b50-a60c-4f0a-a64b-b06e04f3efa6&algo_exp_id=a20d7b50-a60c-4f0a-a64b-b06e04f3efa6-1&pdp_npi=3%40dis!CAD!132.5!132.5!!!!!%40212279a216882265354643948d07dc!10000000748215314!sea!CA!4496536814&curPageLogUid=EJDtaB85Xh7b

2 hours ago, AlZilla said:

Has anyone mentioned https://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng ?  Now, there's a rabbit hole.

Yes reduction pulleys can be a real rabbit hole but that site saves a lot of time rather then having to do the math. It is a great site for those who what to build their owe speed reducer and save a few dollars.

2 hours ago, AlZilla said:

My servo bottoms out at 200 RPMS, even though it's advertised as 0 - 5000.

The bottom speed can vary so much depending on the supplier / manufacturer where some can do less bottom end startup while others are even higher. With the electronic controlled servo it has I believe more to do with the number of coils in the motor. For the bottom end startup I would take a 550 watt 12 coil like the Reliable SewQuiet 6000SM 12-Coil Servomotor ( https://reliablecorporation.com/products/sewquiet-6000sm-servomotor ) over a 750 watt 6 coil any day and maybe a 750 watt 9 coil. The Reliable Sewquiet is $199 CAD ( $150 USD ) which is the same as the Sailrite Workhorse at $300 CAD( $225 USD), don't know who copied who first.

kgg

Edited July 1, 2023 by kgg

[dikman]

My turn! Yet another option, Ana, is to swap the handwheel for a large pulley, along with a small pulley on the motor. This works the same as adding a speed reducer but is not for everyone as it will probably mean lengthening the belt slot on the table.

The one kgg linked to is the same type as the one I found on Aliexpress, it pays to search on there as prices can vary quite a bit. Incidentally, I bought my first three servos (Lishui Skyrit) from them, they were cheaper than ebay back then.

[Ana1234]

Ok thanks for all info, appreciated! I will discuss all options with the technician guy (currently on holiday). Perhaps he has parts in his shop! I'll run all of this by him. 

Info on servos is super helpful. 

So if I got it right - 

- i either get a speed reducer (already built) and then I only need to attach a smaller pulley (45mm) on the shaft (or what ever it's called) of the servo. 

- or I build the system from scratch (cheaper option for parts but I guess I need to pay the technician a handy fee instead) with a larger pulley on handwheel and also the smaller 45mm on servo.

A lot depends on the price of installation. If I go ahead to do it myself I'll be ready to sew in a couple of months 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Ana1234

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

So if I got it right - 

- i either get a speed reducer (already built) and then I only need to attach a smaller pulley (45mm) on the shaft (or what ever it's called) of the servo. 

That would be you least expensive option if you are going to pay a labor rate for someone to install it. To keep your labor cost down have the technician do the full install all at the same time. It will involve i) removing the old motor with a new servo motor ii) removal of the factory 75 mm pulley on the servo with a smaller 45mm pulley iii) installing a speed reducer and iv) installing the two new pulley belts, one belt from the 45mm pulley to the large pulley on the speed reducer and one belt from the small pulley on the speed reducer to the hand-wheel pulley on the sewing machine.

This is not a difficult task but does involve removing the sewing machine from the table and tipping the sewing machine table over so the old clutch motor which is heavy probably around 25kg or so can be more easily and safety lifted off the bottom of the table top. Even the new servo is probably going to weigh around 10 kg.

2 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

A lot depends on the price of installation. If I go ahead to do it myself I'll be ready to sew in a couple of months

This would be the cheapest option by far. Waiting for the parts to arrive is probably going to take awhile due to shipping to your location. Once you have the parts you are probably looking at a couple / three hours of work to remove the old motor, install the new servo motor and speed reducer. It would be much easier and safer if you have someone to help with the heavy clumsy lifting. Once the motor and speed reducer are installed all is left is getting the right size of belts to install on the pulleys.

kgg 

Edited July 2, 2023 by kgg

[AlZilla]

@Ana1234. if you have any level of mechanical expertise (as in you can change the oil in your car or hang a picture straight), swapping out a motor will be easy.  As stated, the weight of that old clutch motor is probably the biggest issue.  You'll have to locate where the speed reducer will sit and drill the holes.  Belts are always my bane on something like this No matter how much I measure, I always seem to miss it by a half inch and make another trip to the store ...

[Ana1234]

Ok super grateful for all advice I feel confident now to pick the needed gear. This was a crash course into speed reduction!! 

I will report back how all of this turned out. Probably in August after holiday season. All the best! 

Just one more thing, with everything fitted and I've achieved that slow stitch how fast will I actually be able to go after that? I don't need top speeds but sometimes I get upholstery work and I am sewing curtains for TV commercials so I'd like to take it up a notch for those projects (now and then). 

Will the extremely slow speed set up be a stress on the machine somehow if I turn the speed up a bit? 

[kgg]

6 hours ago, Ana1234 said:

Will the extremely slow speed set up be a stress on the machine somehow if I turn the speed up a bit? 

The main stress will be caused by putting too thick / tough /sticky of material under the presser foot. I am going to go on the bases your machine is rated for 2000 stitches per minute (spm) in lighter thickness material. If you exceed what the machine is rated for ( sewing capability or speed ) then chances are you are going to have a problem and bust something. The speed reducer will provide both slower speed and more torque ( punching power ). The torque if you exceed the limits of your machine mostly in thickness and type of material being sewn that is when nasty things are going to happen. Keep in mind you do not have a safety clutch on the sewing machine to prevent the bottom end of the sewing machine from being damaged. Speed reducers are like a double edged sword, providing slower more controllable sewing speeds and with that you get more available torque which can damage the sewing machine internals if not cautious.  

Depending on the servo motor you purchase the minimum startup speed rating will be probably be 200 or 300 rpm's with a maximum speed rating of 3000 to 5000 rpm's  

With a 45mm small pulley installed on the motor and a speed reducer with a large 150mm pulley and a smaller 50 mm pulley here is what you can expect as far as needle speed goes. So you can see for doing thinner items you will never come close to exceeding the speed rating of the machine but be cautious on how thick and type of material you plan on putting under the presser foot because of the addition torque available. These sewing speeds would probably drive an experienced production person nuts at how slow they are.

These are based on a hand-wheel pulley size of 85mm.

Motor speed (rpm ) setting --------------------------------------- Needle speed (SPM)

200 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------35

300 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------53

400 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------71

500 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------88

600 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------106

700 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------124

800 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------141

900 rpm ------------------------------------------------------------------------159

1000 rpm ----------------------------------------------------------------------176

2000 rpm ----------------------------------------------------------------------353

3000 rpm ----------------------------------------------------------------------529 

Edited July 2, 2023 by kgg
Forgot to add size of hand-wheel pulley